The Power of Empathy in Brand Storytelling

What do you think of when you hear the word “empathy?” The definition of the word is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. Now, some might equate empathy with psychology and touchy-feely emotional moments. But would you believe that empathy can actually drive better business results? It can even drive more successful influence marketing.

Sarah Panus is a veteran brand and social media marketer. She spent years on the digital team at Sleep Number and not long ago spun off on her own to start Kindred Speak, a brand storytelling and content marketing strategy firm. She also hosts the Marketing with Empathy podcast. 

Influence marketing is a big part of what Sarah does and we get into the nitty gritty about how brand storytelling frameworks can extend out from the brand to influencers and influence marketing. She explains how empathy can drive business metrics and results in marketing, content, influencers and … get this … even SEO. 

We also talked about the highly competitive space of mattress and bedding since she has experience in that space. She shares some insights into working with influencers from her years in the mattress wars.

You brand and agency folks out there should take notes. Sarah has some brilliant ideas you can borrow from to build more empathetic brand content and activations. For you influencers out there, put yourself in the position of being a brand and listen to Sarah as well. She’s about to help you better define who  you are and what you want out of your life as an influence.

This episode of Winfluence, the podcast, is sponsored by Winfluence, the book! Get a special discount by clicking the button below, buying on the Entrepreneur Press bookstore and using the discount code FALLS20. That earns you 20% off the retail price, just for being a Winfluence (the podcast) listener. Read and learn why we’ve been backed into a corner to think influencer marketing means Instagram and YouTube and how reframing it to be “influence” marketing makes us smarter marketers.

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Winfluence Transcript – Sarah Panus – Kindred Speak

Jason Falls
Hello again friends thanks for listening to Winfluence – The influence Marketing Podcast. What do you think of when you hear the word empathy? The definition of the word is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. Now some might equate empathy with psychology and touchy feely emotional moments. But would you believe that empathy can actually drive better business results, it can even drive more successful influence marketing. Sarah Panus is a veteran brand and social media marketer she spent years on the digital team at Sleep Number and not long ago spun off on her own to start Kindred Speak a brand storytelling and content marketing strategy firm. She also hosts the marketing with empathy podcast, influence marketing is a big part of what Sarah does. And we got into the nitty gritty about how brand storytelling frameworks can extend out from the brands to influencers and influence marketing. She explains how empathy can drive business metrics and results in marketing content influencers and get this even SEO. You brand and agency folks out there take notes. Sarah has some brilliant ideas you can all borrow from to build more empathetic brand content and activations for you influencers out there. Put yourself in the position of being a brand and listen to Sarah as well. She’s about to help you better define who you are and what you want out of your life as an influencer. We’re getting in touch with our empathetic side. Sarah Panus is next on Winfluence.

Jason Falls
Support for this episode of Winfluence – The Influence Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Winfluence the book. Winfluence – Reframing Influencer Marketing to Ignite Your Brand is available now from Entrepreneur Press. You can find it in bookstores everywhere, but I’ll have a special place to go online and get a discount in just a second so get ready to jot down a note. This week’s five star review of Winfluence comes from Amazon and a reader named Teresa. She writes, “Many of us have veered away from calling what we do influencer marketing because the term has been incorrectly defined or defined too broadly. This is due to it being the hot new trend to which everyone gravitates Jason Falls in his typical fashion sets the record straight without avoiding the bad reputation influencer marketing has earned. By reframing it he provides a strategic approach for anyone wanting to truly understand the topic, as well as plenty of how to examples ensuring you can do more than talk about the topic, you can get your hands dirty and refine your approach.”

Jason Falls
Thanks, Teresa. If you’ve read the book and would like your review, read on the show review the book on Amazon. I’ll select the most interesting ones to read here. And I will certainly read more than five star reviews. As long as your criticism is constructive. It’s fair and I’ll appreciate it greatly. For those of you who don’t yet have your copy of Winfluence, you can get it on Amazon but if you want a 20% discount just go to jasonfalls.co/buywinfluence. That’s the books page at Entrepreneur Press, my publisher. There you can enter the code FALLS20 and receive 20% off the retail price. The address again is jasonfalls.co/buywinfluence. The code is all caps, FALLS20 Oh, and regardless of where you buy the book, I can still use those Amazon reviews so please review the book there when you’re done! Again. jasonfalls.co/buywinfluence. Get Started reframing influencer marketing to ignite your brand today.

Jason Falls
Sarah, I know brand storytelling is a big piece of what you you know, are passionate about what you’ve worked on. And in that brand storytelling, the one thing that pops out to me in the thing that you use a lot is the word empathy. Tell me what it is about brands and the messages that they send these days that maybe are not empathetic, and how brands can fix them.

Sarah Panus
Definitely. So why I really lean in so much on empathy is because at its root, empathy is just about connecting heart to heart, mind to mind with your audience, right? So if you want to influence them, you want them to listen and engage and trust you and believe what you’re saying. And so I’ll start by answering that actually of kind of just explaining what is good and then that will help us get to you know what, what is not And so in terms of what is good with empathy, what I find actually, when I talk with brands is, when you bring up that word, a lot of people go to all the, you know, ooey, gooey, gushy, you know, melt my heart moments kind of fluff. And empathy can do those things for sure. But when I talk about empathy, and when you are connecting heart to heart and mind to mind, it can be very rational. And so my absolute favorite place for brands to get insights on how to connect with their audiences through their brand storytelling, is actually through SEO, because it is. So that surprises some people. But when you’re looking at what people are searching for online, what are their questions? What are things that they’re thinking about, it gives you such rich insight. And that as a brand, is what you can use in your brand storytelling to then connect, it’s one piece, it’s one example of how you can connect. So say, you’re seeing people have a lot of questions about a certain topic, or they’re confused about something or they’re like, I’m wondering about this versus that that’s an amazing opportunity for your brand. If you are an expert in that space, or it’s an area you really care about, you can create content, to answer that question to relate with them. Maybe you as a brand, feel just as confused about something, and it’s a relatable moment between you and your target audience, you know, and so, that is an amazing way to be thinking about empathy. And really, it is about that connection point. And when I talk about it is, you know, my tip is, I made up a phrase called empathy filter, and whatever piece of content that you’re creating, whether your brand is creating it, you’re partnering with external influencers or other partners, just add an empathy filter question, you know, to your process, and ask yourself, what’s the empathy filter? Why is this going to matter? to our audience. And what I’ve seen is when you do that, that content will, will perform so much better. And I’ve seen it drive up to seven times better engagements better, seven times better results, whether that’s leads, or an action taken. And I’ve seen that content rich with this does drive leading ROI amongst like all paid media, so I’ve seen this work in my career.

Jason Falls
So help me understand I get that from a brand perspective of I can use this empathy filter to help me develop better messaging that, you know, sort of answers that question of what how is why is this gonna matter to the audience? But I wonder how a brand might use that empathy filter to either a, select the right sort of influence marketing partners or collaborations for their brand, but also be how can the brand then use that empathy filter as an extension of their collaboration so that they can, you know, sort of coach the influencers into adding it to what they put out there? If they might need that?

Sarah Panus
Yeah, definitely. Well, so then when you’re doing your research, and you understand who your target audience is, and who you’re talking to, and who you want to engage? And what do they care about? And what are those empathy filter moments of connection together, that definitely can inform the right influencers that you want to partner with? Because if your insights are showing, there’s a strong interest in a certain category like, Okay, well, we know, our audience is really interested in health and wellness. And specifically within that, these are some of the questions we see, we know that there’s a subgroup of this make this up like of moms who are bloody busy, and especially with COVID, and everything going on are kind of sick of parenting, and they’re trying to squeeze in just some normalcy and self care and things like that in their life right there. That’s amazing, like empathy moments, right? As a brand, you have to be thoughtful about that. And so then you can think about well, who would be good partners that are real, and maybe have like, quick, easy ways to infuse health and wellness versus someone that maybe is more on the elite, athletic spectrum, right? So that’s a way to help take that empathy insight, and transition it into who are the right partners that are then going to relay that message. And then as you’re working with those partners, have that dialogue, obviously, right up front in terms of, hey, these are our storytelling pillars. Here are the insights that we know how does that resonate with you, like have those conversations up front before you fully decide to work with them? Because then you can make sure it’s sort of like a, like your givens list, right? And you’re having that conversation with them upfront, just to make sure double check that they’re going to be the right fit. And then that helps get them excited to you know, who you’re partnering with because then they’re excited because Oh, yes, that actually really resonates with me. And I think how would that tells me is this and that’s how I would create the content. intent together with you brand. And then the brand can say, Yep, that’s exactly like the right tone. That’s the right in the way that we would want to work together to reach our audience together.

Jason Falls
Yeah, I think the the thing that resonates there for me is when when when you find an influence partner, I won’t call them influencers and count kind of intentionally, but influence partner who is really into, you know, either your product or you know, they’re getting to know your product, and they’re really enthusiastic about partnering with you. When you say, Here are our brand storytelling, you know, platforms, you know, here’s our messaging, etc. And you kind of give them that roadmap, the really good ones recognized that that’s why you chose them. And they go, Oh, wow, you get me? Because I fit into that storytelling pattern this way. And that’s where you really get I think, some really awesome collaborations.

Sarah Panus
Yes, definitely. I mean, you need to have those guardrails, and it needs to be really authentic. And when it’s driven by insights, like with data, and empathy, that’s where the magic happens in brand storytelling, and you get those stronger results that are going to drive business results, which is what you want from everything that you’re doing.

Jason Falls
So a lot of people out there, I would think, Well, hopefully not a lot. But I’m sure there are some people out there who are on the brand side of things, or even the agency side of things listening to this conversation might say, oh, brand storytelling framework brand story, what? Oh, my goodness, I don’t even know what that is. I How can I go to an influencer with that, if I haven’t defined that for for me and my brand yet? So take us through sort of your definition of what a brand storytelling framework is, so that they understand what it is they need to take to these influence partners in order to kind of have that magic happen?

Sarah Panus
Yeah, absolutely. So I actually have a list of like five essentials that every brand storytelling framework needs. So I’ll walk through that for anyone who is listening in, it’s a great way, if you have one, too, just to kind of double check and audit it to make sure it has all of these pieces in it. Or if you’re starting from scratch, I’ll help help you figure that out. So the first step of any framework is just like any good plan is you need to start with your objective.

Sarah Panus
So really be very clear on what is it that you want your brand storytelling to do and tie it to a business outcome to a business goal. Because then that helps reduce any confusion of this is just kind of upper funnel nice to have no, this is an essential piece for bringing people into our business and engaging with them. And this is the you know, goal of it. So that’s really clear. So it may be you know, driving more emotional engagements to increase like repeat and repeat and referral sales or increasing brand awareness or establishing a leadership position in an area that you care about. There’s a lot of different, you know, ways that can go but really setting that clear upfront will help to get that conversation started. Then you move into the second part is your audience, who are you talking to so having, you know, if you’re doing this in a PowerPoint, just one slide on your audience outlining all the insights you have on them? You know, I know I mentioned SEO before being one of my favorite places to look for insights, because it is it’s just this massive focus group online and people type in things that they wouldn’t maybe tell you if they were in an actual focus group. So you get a lot of really, insights there. But social listening is great, or any, you know, brand consumer insights research that you have, or paid media results, and just helping get a feel for them and just concisely summarize that into one page to really describe who it is that you’re trying to talk to you. Or if you have multiple groups, then defining both of those groups. Then the third part is the most important part of the brand storytelling framework plan, which is your storytelling pillars. So I know I mentioned that before. So I like to think of like a rule of three. So thinking of what are your three storytelling pillars that are the most important, you know, focused areas that you as a company really care about? and want to talk about? What are those areas that you want to influence on? And so that will help you declutter your strategy and just ensure that you’re focused on the most important things. So with this exercise, I find it helpful to think about like, pretend that your brand is a magazine, and you’re the magazine editor. And if somebody asked you, oh, hey, what’s your magazine about? And you say, Oh, well, my publication is about x y&z so that’s a great way to kind of think about what are those three things that we as a brand, want to think about and talk about in our brand storytelling pillars? And what I find is, you know, usually the there’s two that are you more on point with your brand. And the third one if you can, it’s great if you can think of it sort of as a wild card. What is it about your brand that makes you a little different and interesting and weird. And how can you bring that into your mix? So that way when you’re talking holistically, you don’t sound like all the rest of your competition? What is it about you that makes you different. So like for me, for example, me, sir produces an entrepreneur, my own personal brand and my brand storytelling strategy. My three pillars are one is content marketing, or brand storytelling. The second is creativity. And my third, my wild card is trout child trafficking. It’s a it’s a cause that’s really important to me and an issue and I’m intentionally making a decision where I am saving up a percentage of all my proceeds to fund child cheff trafficking rescue missions through the snap great nonprofit called ij m, the International Justice Mission. But that’s like my wild card. So it’s something that’s a little different about me. And what that helps to do, right, this wild card and with your brand and these pillars, is it helps your audience just to get to know a little bit more about you so that you’re not because you’re not cookie cutter, no one’s no brand is cookie cutter, we’re all a little different. And you want to embrace that. So that’s the third, third piece of it. And then the fourth essential is tone. So having an outline to be really clear on what is the tone and voice and personality of your storytelling content. And this is really, really important, Jason, because I find that, you know, there’s a lot of different directions you can take. And if you, you want to make sure you get alignment, like with your leaders on what that tone is a friend, because it’s gonna save you a lot of editing later on, if they don’t like the way something’s coming across. So are you a funny brand? Or are you you know, and there’s a lot of definitions of funny, you know, kind of getting into there, or are you more academic and serious, or, you know, conversational and caring. So, there’s, there’s a bunch of different directions that can take. And then at the end of this, the fifth part is after you’ve outlined, you know, the objective audience, the storytelling pillars and the tone, you want to help bring it to life for people. So people, most people are very visual, and they’ll hear this, they’ll see it, and even for yourself and your team, you want to create, like a sample content calendar. So you know, one slide again, list your three pillars, and then underneath each of them, list out like three to five different headline examples of the types of stories that then actually come to life under those storytelling pillars. So people can really see, oh, the difference from pillar to pillar, and it’s kind of a good gut check, like, yes, this feels on point with our brand, they don’t have to be real headlines that you’re going to actually do, but it’s just for illustrative purposes, at that point, to bring it to life. And then I actually have, I actually have a six bonus when to Jason I just thought of is the other piece too, for anyone who doesn’t already have something like this, the six piece you can add, if you don’t already have it somewhere you don’t feel like you’re online within your organization, is to add like a channel role, kind of like ecosystem, like a diagram of all the channels in which your brand storytelling is gonna live and be shared across both internal and external. And kind of the role of that. So it just shows like how everything works together.

Jason Falls
So I would actually learn, let me add one for you. It’s not necessarily not necessarily adding a seventh, but it’s going back to number five, and talking about that content calendar. And that you’re going to present to people, I would extend that just a little bit and say you’ve got your headlines of here’s what you know, a good storytelling, you know, a piece of content from this particular pillar or this particular, you know, theme. This is how that comes to life. take it one step further and say, okay, and this is the type of influencer that we would use. And here’s maybe an example of an influence partner that we would connect with, to help us amplify that story. And pick out just one that shows that you’ve got alignment with who you’re going to pick to partner with.

Sarah Panus
Yes, I love that. That’s a great great addition to how you can bring that to life. Absolutely.

Jason Falls
There you go. I love the I really find the most sort of satisfying part of influence strategy for me, is really finding the alignment between a brand and an influence partner and just saying, this influencer, this influence partner, this content creator is just an already an extension of this brand. Now we just have to connect the thoughts. That’s the cool part.

Sarah Panus
Yeah. And if and you know, for everyone listening, I do have the list I just went through I do have like a freebie on my website. If you want to, you can just download the PDF, it’s at KindredSpeak.com. There’s a forum at the top of the page, you can just sign up and it’ll be emailed to you.

Jason Falls
Awesome. We’ll make sure we have links to that in the show notes. Now, while we’re talking about the influencer piece here, you know, for those who don’t know, I probably have have, you know, I’m going to go back and write this in the intro so they will know but You’ve spent, you know, a number of years working with a number of brands, not just as you know, you’re the the agency, the consultancy that you’ve built now, but you you’ve been with sleep number for a while. And that’s a really competitive world. Tell us a little bit about what you have done or what you did when you were sort of on the brand side of the aisle at at select comfort Sleep Number, and then tell us how that has come to life in your working with influencers over the years?

Sarah Panus
Yeah, definitely. So prior to I’m pretty new in my entrepreneurial journey, it’s just been within the last year that I started my own consulting company, working with brands. But prior to that, you’re right, I did work at Sleep Number at the corporate headquarters for 12 years, and multiple different hats there. So I actually started and led first started in PR, and then and then started and led the social team for nine years there, which influencers was a part of that function, and so helped oversee the influencer function, and then moved over to lead a new group of content marketing strategy. And it was still overseeing the influencer piece. And then it kind of dabbled in SEO on and off through the years because of how much it informs our content strategy. So that was my background at Sleep Number on the corporate side. And then before that, I was on the agency side, I worked at an agency in Boston and influencers was a piece in addition to like Media Relations and traditional PR work that we were doing for different brands like Starbucks and Nestle waters, we did a lot of influencer work for Nestle waters on their different beverages like Perrier and different brands that we were working on. So the trend Yeah, so it’s been fun, like influencers has been a part of my career really, for almost the last 20 years. And, and really the parlay. Now as I can continue, you know, working within my own business, so I actually still work with Sleep Number. Now, I just don’t work as an employee, but I’m a consultant. So I’m still working with them, we joke that we can’t get rid of each other. Which is a good, it’s a good it’s a compliment.

Sarah Panus
But you know, the parlay, just in terms of what influencers at the root of it is all about, trying to find people who, so who influence your target audience. So that’s why I’m hugely bought into influence in your new book. And, you know, what you talk about, because I always talk about with influencers. I mean, we’ve run the gamut of more celebrity type, you know, all the way down to, you know, the employee base, but I always talk about how when you think about who you want to pick, and who’s influencing you, your audience, whoever you want to influence? You know, I really think about it, it’s kind of evolved for me to kind of go through six different categories. Because what most brands, I think, think of when they think of influencers, is they think of social first, which I’m sure you’ve seen, too, and social influencers aren’t the only type of influencers. And so it’s really kind of an exercise of figuring out, you know, which one so I think of like, you know, is it a listers and celebs that like big top tier, those are harder to work with. More expensive generally. But do you have huge reach, so if you get the right partner and the right affinity there, and that empathy, filter connection, it can be really strong. And then there’s like PR, I call them PR-able experts. So who are experts that your PR team can pitch to media, because what we’ve learned is the media isn’t always interested, usually isn’t interested in social influencers, they’re like, I don’t want to talk to a YouTuber, they want to talk to more like a doctor or someone who’s credible, or, you know, a president of a nonprofit you’re partnering with, so those influence the media, so like, that’s a huge factor you don’t want to ignore because you could get that earned coverage. Right?

Jason Falls
Right.

Sarah Panus
And then your existing customer base, like that’s huge for influence in terms of repeat referral, and word of mouth sales or actions, you know, tapping into that network is absolutely huge. And a really great place, I find for brand storytelling mining, because you go to your existing customer base, and you can find some amazing folks to tap into and share their stories. And they and they tell different stories about your brand than you tell. Mm hmm.

Jason Falls
So it’s good to see, you know, what, what are people actually saying versus what you want them to say? Cuz that can open up the door for a whole new, you know, wing of content if you pay attention close enough.

Sarah Panus
Yeah. And I think as a brand too, you have to resist the urge to edit it too much. Because unless it’s way off, and it’s not aligned to what how you want to come across. But that’s the beauty is letting them talk about it in their own words, because it’s just real and authentic. And it’s a great additional way. Yeah, you’re right to add to what you’re talking about as a brand. And then like my last like, in addition to social. I also think about CSR Or like partner amplifiers, I put them in one group in terms of if your company has like Corporate Social Responsibility programs that you’re doing, who were the if it’s with a nonprofit as an example, like who’s the president of that nonprofit, or who are the leaders at that group, or the champions and advocates that you can tap into, or who are other partners that you’re partnering with? A great example is with the work at Sleep Number that we do sleep numbers, the official sleep and wellness partner of the NFL. So the NFL is a humongous partner. And there’s a very large well being and fitness story that can be shared through that partner. But there’s also partnerships, you know, with media companies and outlets who are co creating content. Right now, I’m working with Katie Couric Media and thrive global on branded content for the brand. And they’re amplifiers of that content, so you can tap into them and the influence they have with their network. So it’s thinking of like, how do you just keep scaling and spreading the little tentacles, you know, around of who has influence? And then the last one, I was thinking, too, that a lot of brands surprisingly, don’t think of is their own employees. Yeah, your employee base is very influential. I mean, they chose to work for your brand for a reason. And they’re staying there for a reason. And hopefully, they’re advocates. So it’s not even just on the recruiting side, but there’s so much passion that can come from your own employee base, and telling their stories. I mean, gosh, look at peloton they’ve like made celebrities out of all of their employees, really, and they’re they have such big followers now, because of just the personalities that they’ve let shine through through their own employee base.

Jason Falls
Well, if you think back to, you know, at least in the in the tech space, for people in the marketing world, you’re probably going to know these names. But if you think back to the original sort of idea of influencers in the social media context, which would have been probably bloggers, you know, one of the early names that comes to mind is Robert Scoble. And he became comes to mind because he was an employee at Microsoft, who started blogging, and kind of putting the ideas out there about the technology and he became one of the top influencers in the tech space for a while anyway, because he was an employee at Microsoft, he probably wouldn’t have been known by anyone had he not been. And then you think about how that amplifies itself today and you’ve got someone like Rani Mani at Adobe. Rani Mani would be an incredible influencer and a very, you know, impactful person, regardless of where she worked. But she is an impactful influencer in the space now because she’s at Adobe. And they have embraced her expertise and put her out front and let her shine. And so companies that haven’t quite bought into that yet, are probably missing some hidden gems within your own employee base that can actually be great advocates for your brand.

Sarah Panus
Absolutely. And also, as you’re saying that it makes me even think to from a leadership perspective, I think about Spanx and Sara Blakely, the founder and CEO, she has an say they do such an amazing job of her as a leader in her own right. And I know like for me, gosh, the shapewear industry is such a growing trending space or so much competition for shapewear. And I’m going to guess that after COVID is done and people start going out to functions and maybe have gained some weight while being home. JOHN COVID I’m gonna guess shapewear sales are gonna increase somewhat. But what Sarah has done such a great, amazing job on is, you know, I know I’ve I’ve followed her her story. And I resonate with her in terms of a female entrepreneur, who really started with like $5,000. And I know what she has shared the story of what her first headquarters looked like, which was out of her small house and like how all the boxes were piled up by the UPS driver, she could even get into her front door. When she first started. I’ve heard about her going, I think it was Saks Fifth Avenue or Nordstrom one of the two, how in the beginning, she would go and wherever her product maybe wasn’t placed in the best place like it was like lower down, you can see it she would physically go in and move it up more so customers could see it. And she always had like her red backpack in the beginning. And now she’s transitioned that into a program that gives money to other female entrepreneurs. It’s called like the red backpack Foundation, I think something like that. But for me, I think that’s a great example of a leader within an organization who has really shared her story that has then transitioned down to the to the line and I know for me like Spanx one, it works you gotta have a good quality product, but to in this whole sea of like otherwise kind of sameness. I gravitate towards it because I like Sara Blakely. And I like the story that she has shared.

Jason Falls
Well, and let me tell you this, if there’s if there’s an author out there who hasn’t taken their book off the bottom shelf at Barnes and Noble and could at eye level and front facing, then they’re not much of an author. Let me tell you that. We do it by golly.

Sarah Panus
You do it, right?

Jason Falls
I do with my book every time I see my book, but of course, I haven’t done it. The the new book I haven’t seen in bookstores yet. But in the old books, every I mean, I went into Half Price Books not too long ago. And they had my email marketing book from, you know, seven or eight years ago. And I pulled it off the bottom shelf and I put it in about the fourth or fifth shelf up and front facing overtop of something by Stephen Covey or something like that. So that somebody would buy it.

Sarah Panus
See, but it’s a great story. And it just humanizes you It makes like it’s a connection point. And it’s cool because it just shows the drive and the passion behind what you’re doing. I love that.

Jason Falls
That’s true. Sarah, where can people connect with you online? I know you’ve got you know, some free downloads on your website and whatnot. But I’d love for people to know where to find you if they want to connect.

Sarah Panus
Absolutely. So I know I mentioned my website at KindredSpeak.com and there. I would love for you guys to join my I have a weekly brand storytelling newsletter. So that’s a great way if you want to get some more brand storytelling tips and inspiration and ideas, sign up for that. It’s also I’m newly getting into the online course space where I’m going to be teaching folks how to DIY their own brand storytelling work. So you can find that on my website. And then online on social channels. You can follow me on Instagram. My handle is @iamsarahpanus on Instagram, or on LinkedIn at Sarah Panus.

Jason Falls
And you’ve got a pretty nice little podcast to let everybody know about that one.

Sarah Panus
Oh my gosh, I can’t believe I forgot that. I was so excited to be on your podcast. I would David mentioned mine. Yes, thank you. So I do have my own podcast. It’s called Marketing with Empathy so you can find that wherever podcast you listen to them. Awesome.

Jason Falls
Sara, thank you much for the insights today and for being on the program.

Sarah Panus
Thanks for having me. This is this is a lot of fun.

Transcribed by otter.ai

The Winfluence theme music is “One More Look” featuring Jacquire King and Stephan Sharp by The K Club found on Facebook Sound Collection.

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