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Early Influencer C.C. Chapman on Influence, TikTok and Being a Creator

C.C. Chapman on Winfluence

C.C. Chapman knows a thing or two about influence and influence marketing. He was a pioneer of podcasting back in its first wave in the early to mid-2000s with a show called Managing the Grey. He had the advantage of being in the middle of the social media and tech boom in Boston then, and became a noted blogger, photographer and content creator.

Chapman first came to national and international prominence speaking at events about intellectual property rights and online media. He became an influencer in the marketing and technology space. But he also worked for brands as a marketer and leveraged bloggers, podcasters and new media creators much the way brands do today under the label of influencer marketing.

Me and C.C. Chapman at SXSW in 2008.

He is the co-author of one of the benchmark books about content marketing — Content Rules which he wrote with Ann Handley of MarketingProfs. It has inspired many a brand and many an influencer to create great content and influence their audiences.

Chapman is now a full-time professor at Wheaton College near Boston, teaching business and marketing to college students. Many of them flock to him to want to know how to be an influencer. He has some sage advice for them.

C.C. and I talk about his evolution, what advice he has for influencers and those wishing to become them today and his thoughts on how brands might explore platforms like TikTok, which he says is — quote — pointless. Listen to hear the rest of the explanation and why he thinks TikTok stands out as different than the other social networks.

This is a conversation you’ll want to enjoy and share with others. Happy Holidays everyone!

Find C.C. Chapman on his website, LinkedIn, Twitter or Instagram.

Buy Content Rules on Amazon.


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Winfluence Transcript – C.C. Chapman – Wheaton College

Jason Falls
Hello again friends … thanks for listening to Winfluence – The Influence Marketing Podcast. The holidays are upon us and that’s typically a time when I take pause and spend time with family and friends. 2020 has obviously made that a bit more challenging and much of those gatherings and conversations will be virtual this year. It was with that family and friends idea in mind I wanted close out the week and kick off the holiday weekend by having a good friend on the show.

Jason Falls
C.C. Chapman is someone I often introduce as my brother-from-a-different mother. He was a pioneer of podcasting back in its first wave in the early to mid-2000s with a show called Managing the Grey. C.C. was in the middle of the social media and tech boom in Boston at that time and became a noted blogger, photographer and content creator. He first game to national and international prominence speaking at events about intellectual property rights and online media. In short, he became an influencer in the marketing and technology space. But he also worked for brands as a marketer and leveraged bloggers, podcasters and new media creators much the way brands do today under the label of influencer marketing. He is the co-author of one of the benchmark books about content marketing — Content Rules which he wrote with Ann Handley of MarketingProfs. It has inspired many a brand and many an influencer to create great content and influence their audiences.

Jason Falls
Speaking of influencing, C.C. Chapman is now a full-time professor at Wheaton College in Boston, teaching business and marketing to college students. Many of them flock to him to want to know how to be an influencer. He has some sage advice for them. He’s here today to share it with us, too. C.C. and I talk about his evolution, what advice he has for influencers and those wishing to become them today and his thoughts on how brands might explore platforms like TikTok, which he says is — quote — pointless. But … You’ll need to listen to hear the rest of the explanation. C.C. actually explained to me why TikTok stands out as different than the other social networks, too. Lots of goodness on this holiday edition of the podcast. Pour a glass of bourbon and settle in for C.C. Chapman. Next on Winfluence.

Jason Falls
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Jason Falls
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Jason Falls
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Jason Falls
So you’re a full time college professor now do you spend all your time convincing the co-eds they need to plan on something beyond being an influencer? Or have we reached the tipping point and you just teach them all how to be influencers?

C.C. Chapman
It’s funny because I taught from my first time this semester at Wheaton I taught a digital marketing course I’ve taught it before but not there. And it was interesting because they all came in bunch of them did come in thinking they wanted to be influencers. I kind of stamped that down day one and like, listen, it’s a lot of work to be an influencer. It’s nothing you can just flip the switch on. But you know, it’s interesting. And it’s definitely a it’s fun what they bring up in class as examples sometimes.

Jason Falls
Is it not amazing, though, to think back? Like we didn’t have this option? No, no, we I mean, I guess both you and I, and a bunch of our friends kind of sort of fell into becoming influential in I guess, the marketing space, but I don’t … we never had this as an intention. We social media didn’t exist, really, when we were coming out of school. So it’s got to be weird to encounter, you know, 18, 19, 20-year-olds who were like, well, I want to be an Instagramer.

C.C. Chapman
Well, yeah, and it is, and it is, it’s, yeah, we did stumble into it. I mean, I started doing it because I was making these little indie films that, you know, we didn’t have YouTube yet. And I needed a way to market them. So I was making stuff up, you know, figuring out finding communities online and, you know, text based and all that crazy stuff. And nowadays it is it what’s really interesting is I always have fun when I’m like, hey, has anyone in here ever been reached out to as an influencer before? And it’s funny because I get some giggles. And then I have had I had a student last semester, who she was one of the Clorox influencers. They were reaching out to … working with college students. And it’s funny, she had me review or contract and it was it’s a lot of fun just because she was smart enough to go. I don’t know what I know. Can you help me? And I was like, Yes, I would love to help you. Because it was funny, cuz I’m like, I remember that one. Kudos to Clorox for anyone listening. I was like, this is actually a legit con, you know, contracts on taking advantage of you. It’s actually really good. I was like, heck yeah. So.

Jason Falls
So that’s it. You got a new cottage industry, you can be an influencer agent from Wheaton. There ya go.

C.C. Chapman
No! I didn’t … I laugh. I actually have a friend who does that. And she does very well at it. But no, yeah, it’s funny. I did joke around about that a little bit. But I do try to I do have students now that it’s really weird. I’m coming up in a month on my three year anniversary. And so I’ve had students who I taught, as they were first year students, and now they’re going to be graduating seniors. And I thought, like one of them has this Rich and Swift, it’s a hoodie company and apparel company, this kid Shaw, who I’ve, you know, he’s one of my advisees. And I like to think of mentoring him a little bit. But it’s funny cuz I keep nudging, I’m like, dude, you need to do this, and he won’t listen to me. And it’s funny, because I’m like, you know, I’ll plug RichSwift.nyc, this great brand that he came in, you know, dreaming about starting in, in New York, and I’m like, kid, you got to do some more. And he’s funny. I know. I’m like, No, do it. But he’ll get there. But yeah, maybe maybe that’s what that’d be. That’d be my next. I’ll reinvent myself and to be that person, I don’t think so.

Jason Falls
So how is teaching in a COVID world, I get a daily dose of what it’s like from a middle school science teacher, because one of those is my significant other. But what what what is professorship like in what I assume is an all virtual teaching thing at Wheaton.

C.C. Chapman
It’s not. It’s not all virtual, we had we, it was really amazing. I mean, I’m very blessed to work where I do, Wheaton gave the option to every student and every faculty member to teach either in person on campus or remotely. Now, that’s a beautiful thing. But for a teacher, like me, I opted to teach on campus, because I felt like if all of us went virtual, we wouldn’t, nobody would be there. But what was hard for me was that meant I was teaching kids in class. But then I had a whole group of kids in each class that was remote, who opted to be remote. And we didn’t have the like, the whole synchronous setup. You know, it’s like me talking teaching one class. So I would teach the remote separate a whole separate site to do extra work. But it worked. I mean, it was really tough. I mean, anybody who says, you know, kudos to a huge thank you to every teacher, Professor, educator, whatever, and to the parents trying to balance it with their kids, because this stuff is just it. Nobody was prepared for it. The spring, we all kind of dove into it. And then this fall, I mean, I know we just looked at a big survey. And you know, students are struggling teachers are struggling. I know. I’m finishing up my grades. We just finished the semester on Friday. Tomorrow, I will finish on my grading and I’m gonna take a big, big breath and feel better about it. It’s tough, but I love it. I love the kids I love you know, I was weird having these first year students who, I don’t know what they look like, because if they were in person, they were in masks. And if they were virtual, then I could see but their virtual is not quite the same. So I told them like, hey, next fall when you’re on campus, say hello to me, because I’m not gonna remember who you are. I feel bad.

Jason Falls
Yeah, that I never really thought about that. But it is funny. I I’ve noticed that the few times that I’ve gone out, I’ll run into some like, I’ll be at the grocery store, which I’ve gone maybe, I don’t know, three, four times in the last six months. But I was in there one one day and like two people said hello to me. And I was like, Who are you? I don’t know. I guess I’m recognizable because I get this big ass beard sticking out from under my mask so they know who I am. But I don’t know who they are.

C.C. Chapman
Right right now, right? Yeah, it is weird. The whole mask. The mask thing was tough too for a few weeks just getting used to talking with it. And you know, I move around. I don’t sit behind a podium. So but it’s I mean, it was it was, it’s been such a long year teaching and every teacher deserves a pay raise and a hug and a bottle of bourbon. But, man, it’s, it’s, we’re gonna get through it somehow. But ya know, it’s been tough.

Jason Falls
We are. So I think it’s safe to say that a lot of your career has been carved out of being a content creator. You mentioned that you started out, you know, creating, you know, films and whatnot. And so but but because you were a content creator, and because of when you started doing all this, it led to you kind of becoming an influencer, at least in the marketing space because of where your career path took you. Take us back to the first things you did where you realized, oh, wait a minute, I can I can build my own audience?

C.C. Chapman
Well, yeah, it was crazy. Because, you know, the really the first thing was, you know, the early days of podcasting. You know, podcasting is not new, you know, I did my first one in 2004. And then I was building helping build this thing called the Podsafe Music Network. And suddenly, I was, you know, being flown around the world to speak at conferences, advocating for music rights, and the concept of using music on podcasts. And suddenly, you know, I had bands reaching out to me and agents and all this stuff, you know, that was my first taste of influence. But then it was, yeah, I’ve always created content, whether it’s photography, or writing. And I’ve been blogging since 2002. And it was, it was always interesting when, you know, brands reach out and say, Hey, can we do something together? Or, and I think the first ones were, you know, I would talk about something that I just genuinely loved. I have always treated my blog as a journal first and foremost, like it originally was. And, you know, I’d write about, you know, I love this brand, or I dug this, you know, I bought this product, and it sucked and that sort of stuff. And then people started reaching out and said, Hey, would you like to check out our product, and it kind of went from there? And then, of course, you know, writing, you know, writing a book. Writing Content Rules with Anna Hanley, you know, changed my life forever, where all of a sudden, you know, I jokingly I tell this story all the time where I said, “No! Who the hell needs a book about content marketing, we’ve all got this figured out?” Ooops! And, you know, now it just celebrated 10 years. And you know, it’s like, I forget, it’s like, 12, 13, 14 languages, I forget. And it’s been really fascinating. It’s really fun. Because I hate calling myself an influencer, it feels like such a douchey thing. And it’s my New England DNA is like, dude, don’t do that. But it’s but it but it’s fun. Because I also, you know, got to work on the other side where, you know, working, one of the things I always teach my marketing students, and even not the digital marketing, but my regular marketing students, I do a whole lesson on influencer marketing, because I want them to realize that this is something that if they go into marketing, it’s not going away. It’s going to evolve, it’s going to change it always has. And I want to make sure that at least they’re told what to do right, because I see agencies still doing it wrong. And so I want to, you know, we go through, and it’s always fun and fascinating. And this semester, we actually had to work on a project where an old acquaintance contacted me and said, “Hey, we need some influencers for our company, can you do you think your students can help us?” And so we spent, I threw him a lesson plan for three weeks, we actually, like, researched it and you know, debated over who we should reach out to, and they realized just how hard it was to find influencers, which was fun, because I was like, hey, who, you know, we narrowed it down to categories. You want family people, we wanted athletes, we wanted special needs. And you know, because that was a fit. And then I said, “Okay, go find them.” And they came back, I gave him an assignment, like professor that was hard. I go, “I know.” Now imagine if I can do and said I need 50 of them by the end of the week. And that was your job? I said, It’s not easy. And it’s grunt and it’s not, then you have to plan it out. And how do you we spent, I had the fun that literally, Jason I sat him down and said, All right, how are we going to we’re going to write out we’re gonna write to family influencers, we’re sending out this this package, how are we going to ask them for their email address? And we spent a class arguing over how to write the email. And they couldn’t believe that they argued about that about like, do you say hello, do you say hi, do you say how you doing? And those things matter? And I just was, I’m glad that I get the chance to tell at least you know, that class of 25 kids, this is how at least they’ll come out hopefully, a little bit smarter. But you know, thankfully, and hopefully, you know, maybe I heard there’s like a new book coming out at some point. Maybe I’ll have to make them read or something.

Jason Falls
Yeah, yeah, you can, you can force him to buy that for me. That’d be great. It’s, it’s a February 23. I got the date today, finally. So I know when it’s coming out now. So okay, side note, I want to ask you about your blog. It’s at cc-hyphen chapman.com. And probably anybody that knows you and a lot of people in the marketing content space, subscribe to it. And if we weren’t good friends, I wouldn’t ask it this way. But you know, I ask with love and good intentions. But here’s, here’s the question. It’s a long one. Bear with me.

C.C. Chapman
Okay.

Jason Falls
You’re not a marketing blogger.

C.C. Chapman
Nope.

Jason Falls
You’re not a business blogger.

C.C. Chapman
Nope.

Jason Falls
You’re not a dad, blogger. You’re not a photography, blogger. You’re not an outdoors blogger, you’re not a writing blogger. And yet you are a little bit of all those things. So I have two questions. The first one is, how do you describe your blog to people? And the second question, how on earth is one build an audience without some consistent thread or is there one that I just don’t see?

C.C. Chapman
Answer the second part first. You don’t. You don’t build an audience or build up a huge community without having focus. And I know that, and I have always from day one, told myself and promised myself this is before, these are the early two thous… July 5, or 2002. When I wrote my first blog post, I said, I’m just going to write, I’m going to treat this like a journal, and I’m going to write about things that interest me. And that’s the way it’s going to be. And I know after like Content Rules came out, I should have, I love him, but I sent him a … I said, I could have been Jay Baer, if I wanted to, but I didn’t want to. I didn’t want to write about just marketing and stuff. And he does a great job at it. But I didn’t want to, and it’s hard to build an audience. And I don’t know if my blog necessarily has a huge audience. I haven’t looked at … I generally don’t look at my numbers. But it’s one of those things where I always treat it as I’m gonna write about things that matter to me. And if people find it, that’s fantastic. I treat all my networks that way. I just always have. And how do I describe my blog? I don’t, I usually don’t even describe the bloog, I usually describe the website and I say, you know, I’m a New England based educator, and storyteller. And people take it from there, because I don’t necessarily promote my blog, over just my website, you know, because I do I write books I teach. I mean, I love to speak. I love to mentor, I love to do all sorts of things. And that’s been one of my big things where I’ve always I know, if I really wanted to earlier in my career, I truly could have focused in on one or two things and really nailed it and really, truly become a quote-unquote influencer in photography, or outdoor or travel. But I never, it was never the priority for me and never has been, it’s always I create, I write and share because it fulfills something in me. And the fact that I’ve been able to make money, keep a roof over my head based on that, or in addition to it, it’s never been the main source of income. You know, I’ve always had a job that’s changed and evolved over time. So the blog’s never been the driving force. For me, it really hasn’t. And I always tell people, you know, do as I say, not as I do, because my website, you know, is it could be optimized and SEO. Now, you know, there’s so many more things I could do. But I don’t I don’t do it for that. And I know that’s weird. But it’s that’s the that’s the honest truth.

Jason Falls
Well, I think it I will say as someone who for about five years thought about nothing but growing my blog from a business perspective. And then I went for a few years of just kind of writing personally kind of like you do. And now I’m back to sort of trying to build a little bit more of a consistent audience, I can tell you that what you did do, maybe accidentally was you preserved your sanity, because if you’re trying to build a business out of a single person blog, it’s hard. And it will drive you absolutely crazy. And it did for me, I got to the point where I was burnout, I brought in some other writers to keep it going, then I was managing content, not writing content, I didn’t really like that as much. And I got to a point where, you know, an opportunity came along, and I sold the business and the blog and the business to a partner of mine, and got out and did some other things, which was great. But at the same time, you know, when I when I sold that, I sold my list, I sold assets that I’d built up and so I had to restart, which, again, drives you crazy, but

C.C. Chapman
Oh it does. And early on, I realized I was just like I could like I was like I should be writing, you know, the top 10 marketing tricks and da da da da and da da da da. And it would have been great. I could write those but like you said, I just it wasn’t what fueled my soul. And it just, you know, just, I’ve been I’ve been I’ve been super lucky, super fortunate that things have worked out for sure. But I’ve never, I if I had to lean on my social media accounts for my living, I’d be scared, I think and I know a lot of people do that. And like you said, it’s a lot of work. And I don’t think people realize just how much work it is and people who have those audiences that you know, pick, pick whatever network you want, they work their tails off, even though it might look like they’re just hanging on the beach and posing for beautiful pictures or whatever it is. They’re working their butts off.

Jason Falls
Yeah. So I want to ask you about that, that, you know, kind of the real business of being a content creator because you’ve you’ve also had, you know, you’ve always also had agency jobs or other irons in the fire over the years. So for those aspiring influencers out there, whether they’re your students or not how tell tell me what you would say to them? Do you build a future with a job and then that content creation thing is kind of your quote unquote, career on the side until you can afford to not have the job? Or is today’s influence landscape different enough that the rules have just changed?

C.C. Chapman
I what I usually tell them is I asked them, you know how comfortable they are with risk. First and foremost, because having a steady paycheck is a beautiful thing. Any of us who have done the freelance thing — It’s scary! You know, there’s nothing wrong with knowing on Friday you’re going to have a paycheck. There’s nothing wrong with that. That’s very nice. You don’t know where your next meal is coming from. As far as a paycheck. It’s scary. So I usually start there. And then I explain to them that, you know, there is nothing wrong with having a job, getting experience, building up the job, and then doing the content building, whatever it is on the side, I hate the word side hustle, but do it on the side, right? You know, do it at night, do it on the weekends, and see what happens. But then I also say, But listen, if you’re really committed to this, and you know, maybe you’re gonna live at home, maybe your mom and dad aren’t on your case, to find a job. Maybe you’re in a situation where you can do that dive in, then go crazy and commit to it. But you got to do it. And you can’t just do it half assed, you can’t just it’s going to take a lot of hours, a lot of grunt work, and it is not going to happen overnight. I hate it. That’s that’s the biggest lie that everybody’s been told is that, you know, yes, lightning can strike. And yes, you could make a video, but you know, you see these, I got 150,000 views on TikTok, yeah. Okay, what do you do with it? It’s not all about the numbers. But getting that 150,000 views every time? Do that. That’s hard. And I think that’s what I usually tell people is, if you want to do this, you got to really be in it for the long haul, or do it on the side. And still, you’re gonna work just as hard doing it on the side. And some people are motivated by that, you know, jump off the cliff and build the plane before we crash. Some people are motivated by that approach. Some people are scared of that.

C.C. Chapman
But at telling students, I usually tell them, there’s not going to be a better time in your life to be risky than right after college. Because you don’t have the spouse, the partner, you don’t have the house, the mortgage. Yeah, you’ve got six months before your things are due. But it’s a lot harder to be risky when you have more commitments in life. And yes, I understand, you know, 22 year old coming out of college with so much debt. Yeah, there’s a, there’s stuff going on there. But at the same time, you know, if you’re living at home or you’ve got roommates, it’s different, there’s, that’s the best time to be risky. And if any parent out there, and I’m sorry, but it’s true. It really is. I mean, granted, you know, I always also had the philosophy to one of the things I always tell people too and this was my philosophy for a long time was, I could always go get a job. There, you know, it may not be a glamorous job, but I could go work at Amazon or Target or Starbucks or a grocery store, I could go get money, find a job to make money if I had to. It may not be the agency jobs, and I think most people at least that’s my work ethic, I could find a job, I could pay the bills if I had to. So if you have that mentality, and you’re not one of those, you know, divas and diva uses non binary term for all the genders. ‘Cause guys can be divas too. Don’t be Don’t be a diva saying, well, I have to have this sort of job set real expectations.

Jason Falls
Yeah. By the way, the going rate for 150,000 views on TikTok by CPM standards is $,1,500. So you’re not living very, very long on that. So

C.C. Chapman
Well, that’s the other thing, too. I don’t know how many times I’ve said to people, it all depends on it. Also, what level of living do you need? Like, you know, what kind of you know how much because $1,500 for for a kid living at home? Not paying for bills? That’s a lot of cash.

Jason Falls
Yeah.

C.C. Chapman
You know, for a dad like us with kids? No. That ain’t much at all. So it’s one of those also figure what kind of lifestyle you want. You know, it’s one of those things. And that’s why you see, I always love when people are like, that person lives there? And it’s like, yeah, you don’t have to live in San Francisco or New York, you can live in the middle of Iowa, or Nebraska or New Hampshire, you know, or Kentucky, right? You can live the middle nowhere. Not that Kentucky is the middle of nowhere, but

Jason Falls
That’s okay. Well, I’ll take it. Yeah, we we actually talked to Jeremy Wright on the show last week or the week before and he moved to Thailand. Not in Bangkok, like Northern Thailand out in the middle of you what you would we you and I would probably consider nowhere. It’s a nice city, though. Chiang Rai is where he lives. And he moved there specifically because it significantly lowered his cost of living so he can afford to charge lower rates and work with smaller businesses.

C.C. Chapman
And what you’re seeing, I mean, I love this new term, zoom towns instead of boom towns. I love that because it’s true. You don’t you know, where everybody thought they had to live, you know, in the city, and you know, those jobs are going to evolve, you can technically live anywhere and do your job. You know, it’s why I don’t you know, it’s why I live so far outside of Boston, because I couldn’t afford to live in Boston. You kidding me? You know, I like living out here in the woods. But I think you’re gonna see more and more people do that, especially now where, you know, I can’t imagine paying the rent in San Francisco or New York City. No way. But yeah, you move to Thailand or you move to you know, I have friends. I have a bunch of friends in Fargo, you know, you know, the cost of living there compared to pretty much anywhere else in the United States is a lot cheaper. Why not go someplace? I think it’d be great. If I got my wife to do it. It’d be awesome.

Jason Falls
So you mentioned Boston. I want to ask you a specific question about that because you came into you know, this career this world of content creation and influence and marketing and all that jazz, in you know, the early to mid 2000s and after I just want to just give people a little framework if if anybody out there knows these names, and if you don’t look them up, but you had Chris Brogan, you had Christopher Penn, you had Laura Fitton, you had Steve Garfield, you had Tamsen Webster, you had Scott Monty, you had Joe Jaffe, you had a lot of people in that, you know, city in that community. At a time when, you know, sort of the the melding of the minds happened and Boston became an “it” thing. Now I realize Harvard and MIT are there. And it’s a place where you’re going to have a gravitation of tech thinkers and whatnot. There’s a lot of other great private private colleges like Wheaton and whatnot around there, too. But you were there, you were literally, you know, down the block when Facebook was invented. You know, you were you were there when this was before even HubSpot blew up and made it even, you know, a bigger deal. What was it like to be in Boston? 15 years ago, when all this stuff was exploding?

C.C. Chapman
It was it was a lot of fun. I mean, and I just gotta just because I have to Jaffe is a New York guy. Boston doesn’t claim him. So

Jason Falls
Okay, gotcha my bad? Well, he’s, he’s also he’s also either South African or British or whatever the hell he is. And he’s also a Tottenham fan, which that rules him I can’t I can barely speak to him. It was hard to have him on the show.

C.C. Chapman
Boston, but no, but it was it was a really fun time because like I remember like the early days of podcasting, and New England, podcasting, and we got together John Harvard’s Brewhouse and just said, hey, anybody who’s podcasting come out. And it was it was Penn and Garfield and John Wall and Kristin Brandt, you know, at Minute Mommies and Clinton Arvall, and I mean it was all these people. And it was a lot of fun. And you know, the early days of, you know, when the PodCamp, the first PodCamp happened, and everybody came to Boston, it was a really exciting time. And it was one of these things where, you know, we were just making it up as we went along. It was new technology, we were all playing with it, trying it out. And then we started connecting the dots of oh wait? You’re local? Cool! I mean, Chris Penn lives literally like four miles up the road from my house. And you know, just this weird intersection and it was a lot of fun, especially now to watch your to look back and see all those different career paths. All these people took, like Chris Penn doing a financial aid podcast, and now look at him, you know. And Steve Garfield, basically, you know, one of the first video bloggers and now you know, an angel investor, it just, it was it’s a lot of fun. And I’m really fortunate that so many of these people are still my friends. And I remember we used to do this thing called the Chapman Chill over the Fourth of July, I’d roast a pig and everything. I remember one time sitting there, and it was I forget it was me and Tamsen and Clarence and, and, and and Steve are all sitting on her lap and I go, do you know how many people on the internet would like, there’s like pre Instagram would like freak out if they saw us all just sitting around together. We were laughing about it, because we’re just people, we’re just friends. But we know that would like freak people out, like all those people are together. And we’re just friends, you know, and it’s just, I’m very fortunate. And it’s fun, because there’s all these different clusters of people in different cities. You know, that was the early days a podcast, you know, PodCamp Philly and PodCamp everywhere, just it’s so much fun. You know,

Jason Falls
I remember the first time I was with a group of us and I don’t remember all the people that were there, it was probably some combination of me, you know, Brogan, maybe Liz Strauss, a bunch of other people. We were at a conference somewhere. And I remember a couple of the conference attendees, whoever they were walked into the restaurant were we were all sitting around the table. And these two little girls looked over and you would have thought they just saw Michael Jackson. I mean, they they almost peed themselves. And I was like, okay, y’all need to sit down and have a drink and chill out. Because that’s not how this works. But, and it was weird because we had this like, I don’t know, faux celebrity or whatever, within our little bubble. And it got surreal there for a while. But I know what you mean about you know, people would have freaked out if they saw you all just sit around because I ended in 2005. Before I started kind of going to marketing conferences and speaking and whatnot, I would have been one of the people who freaked out because I was following all you guys. I was reading your blogs and stuff.

C.C. Chapman
It was so funny ’cause I always remember the porter the first Portable Media Expo out in Ontario, California. And I warned my wife on to come Laura wanted to come. And I said I gotta warn you, I said a lot of people are going to know me and I’m not going to know anybody cuz this was early. This was the early days of podcasting. Nobody showed their faces, you know, there was no YouTube, there was no Instagram. And I was one of the few people who had like my image on my artwork. And I said people are gonna know who I am. And this is gonna be weird, and she laughed about it. And then we got there. And like, got in the hotel lobby. This dude’s like, dude, your C.C. Chapman! And I’m like, yeah, Hey, man, what’s up? And my wife later was just like, oh my god is it I told you I don’t get it. It’s that was a weird, but she she had a good time bust busting me about it all weekend. Like, don’t let this go to your head like I’m not thankfully. So we all know people who did let it go to their heads, unfortunately

Jason Falls
That that’s true. I remember the first time it happened to me. I was it was the first BlogWorld and I had been around, you know, on the internet blogs and whatnot for a while, and Todd Yearwood and I went together and we were walking down the hallway after we got our badges and like 14 people were like Jason Falls Hey, Jason Falls, Jason Falls. And Todd kind of turned and looked at me said What in the hell is going on? And I said, dude, my Twitter avatar is my face, they recognize me. Yeah. And he changed his avatar that day.

C.C. Chapman
Nice.

Jason Falls
Because he was using like, some graphic of his initials or something.

C.C. Chapman
And how old do we sound? Because you know, right now people are listening, going, people who didn’t have their photos.

Jason Falls
Oh Yeah.

C.C. Chapman
Nobody did in the early days, it was the main nose. But nowadays, you know, we didn’t have Instagram and selfies and all that sort of stuff.

Jason Falls
That’s right. All you youngsters out there. Listen up.

C.C. Chapman
We’re O.G.!

Jason Falls
You have your pictures as your avatars because we figured out how to do it and taught y’all so just bow down or whatever.

C.C. Chapman
Oh, boy.

Jason Falls
Fun times, man. Oh, so while we’re talking about the the platforms out there, I want to ask you this question. I’m not gonna fill in any context. I just want to ask, what do you think of TikTok?

C.C. Chapman
Oh, it’s friggin pointless. But But, but it’s genius. I here’s what here’s my thing. So TikTok is one of those things because it sucks you in and you lose an hour. And you’re like, what the hell happened? Because TikTok’s algorithm is so much more powerful than every other network out there. Think about this. When you go to any other social network out there, you are automatically presented with what you have chosen to follow first. TikTok doesn’t. TikTok shows you what it wants to show you first. And it’s based on what you’ve liked, interacted … It’s the only network that does that. And we would hate if I open up Instagram and open to the Explore tab and look at the heck’s going on. But TikTok from day one has done that. And the fact that what what TikTok does better than any other and they’ve got the algorithm It is so powerfully done. Because you if you grab do this, sometimes, especially if it’s young people who use TikTok, everybody’s TikTok is completely different. Like my daughter sees a lot of farming in this sort of, you know, that’s her vibe, and other people see lots of this vibe, TikTok the algorithm, you know, remember, like, I liked one dog video my first day, and all of a sudden, the feed got better, because there’s lots of dog videos. It’s their algorithm is so smart. And I do think while I pick onTikTok I do think it’s evolving really interestingly, watching celebrities watching politicians use it, the fact that they’re going with longer form video, it’s it’s working, whether or not it’s where it’s gonna go is going to be interesting. But their algorithm is so much more powerful than any other one out there, that you can’t just write it off as much as I want to write it off as oh, it’s just stupid dance videos in memes. It’s not. It’s really watching it during the election or watching like what my daughter shows me like, Hey, did you see this? Because she knows I don’t look at TikTok anymore. It’s just a mate. You know, her version is so different than mine is different. But that that fact that you open it up, you see what the algorithm wants to show you first, and you have to go click over to your following. If you want to see that. That’s such a shift, then I can’t I can’t fault them. I’m glad that you know, they’re now being allowed to stick around. Because that was all craziness. But it can be really interesting to watch it grow and prosper.

Jason Falls
Yeah, that that really defines why it’s successful. Because I I kind of like you when when I think of, Okay, how can I use this to create content, it frustrates me. I don’t like it because I don’t like editing content on the three inch screen with my fat thumbs. It’s too frustrating for me to do that. I don’t really like Instagram Stories for the same reason because I’m like, I want to create things on a computer in you know, Adobe Suites and make them look beautiful. I don’t want to tap on a screen with my thumbs. But conversely, when I open up TikTok, and I start to watch the videos, I can’t stop.

C.C. Chapman
Right?

Jason Falls
You know, it’s like watching funny Vine videos. I was just like, all day, I’m just sitting there and I look up and I’ve been on it for 45 minutes, like, holy crap, what am I doing? You know,

C.C. Chapman
I still doesn’t make I always tell the story in classes to show how old I am. And I always talk about how I’m like, and I remember when we were all like vertical videos — the Antichrist, you never feel that way. Now it’s like, No, you do. You know,

Jason Falls
I still I still don’t like vertical video.

C.C. Chapman
I don’t either. And I’ve gotten better with it. But it’s funny when you talk about Instagram Stories I use, I use Instagram Stories. That’s one of the networks I use very, very specifically because I cheat. I’ll give Jane Quigley who I know you know, too, called this this is long before it was Instagram. But she she called it moment sharing. And that’s how I’ve always approached Instagram Stories where I don’t worry too much about it. It’s literally like my behind the scenes. It’s my moment sharing where I don’t overthink it. But But then again, I do like I taught my class this year because I’m an Adobe Creative Educator, which I love. I love the program they do. I taught my class Spark how to use Adobe Spark, which is a great free tool for creating stuff, but I never use it but I know how to use it. But I do I choose moment sharing where it’s just like I don’t my Instagram feed like what photos I put up I definitely think about but for as far as the story. It’s just random playtime and Snapchat’s really random playtime. Because I don’t use it a whole lot, but I just treat it as capturing moments and that keeps my sanity because like you editing and creating on my phone drives me nuts you know I want to do on an iPad or a computer but my phone no thank you too little too little and bigger, bigger thumbs like you said.

Jason Falls
So you’ve written a couple books, we talked a little bit about Content Rules with and handling, which blew up and I think actually saw something recently that it was mentioned on the list of books you should read if you are a writer along with like On Writing by Stephen King.

C.C. Chapman
Yeah, that was cool. Dude, that was that was lists don’t usually like get me going. That one blew my mind. I was like, I’ll take that I will take that and just be like hell yeah.

Jason Falls
Well, and I’ll be honest with you, I have, you know, have had a couple of interns and a couple of folks who have come to me and said, “What do I need to read if I want to, you know, learn how to write better?” And I normally give them Stephen King’s On Writing, The The War of Art by Steven Pressfield, and Content Rules. And I literally will hand them those three books and say, go read these three, and you’re gonna be in good shape.

C.C. Chapman
Well, I’ll take I’ll take that because those other two are masterpieces. So

Jason Falls
Yeah. Yeah, it’s good stuff. So and the other book, Amazing Things Will Happen was I … the way that I looked at that book, when I read it was like, well, this is like an inspirational book. This is like very different from what, you know, I’ve read from C.C. in the past. Now I know some people on the influencer path out there will cross that bridge at some point and get the opportunity to write or get the itch to do it. What advice would you give an aspiring author who doesn’t have a clue what goes into it?

C.C. Chapman
What I always tell them, because I have this conversation, I say, I say here’s a book … Google “book proposal template.” Find one, ask an author for one … see if you can write the book proposal. Because it’s one thing to have that idea of, Oh, I got this idea. But can you actually write it because a book proposal because writing a book, especially in today’s world, unless you’re going to self publish it and then you still got more work to do. But the book proposal if you want to get actually like pitched and get it bought by a publisher? It’s as much as if, if not more, how many book copies can you sell? And how are you going to sell them? Writing it? Writing a book is easy part as far as the publisher is concerned? How are you going to market it? So I always tell him to start there and get ready for some very long, dark, lonely hours writing a book is not sexy. I always talk about Seth Godin and I having a conversation. And he’s like writing his work. It’s not digging a ditch level hard work, but it is hard work. And it is it’s not glam… But I will tell you, if you do get the opportunity to write a book, do it, because it is it is one of the coolest experiences to have people who are like, “I read this and it made a difference in my life.” I read this or to see it on a bookshelf is just mind boggling. And I know what a why, especially back when you and I were writing our first books. Um, you know, it felt like everybody we knew was writing books. And it almost felt a little not. It felt a little like normal like, yeah, okay, all of us writing books. But I always remember right after Content Rules came out. I went out to my my best friend’s wedding. And he’s like, “Dude, you wrote a book!?” Like, yeah. He’s like, “No!” And he’s like, yelling at me. He’s like, no, it’s a big deal and like to realize it is a bit because it’s gonna be around forever, you know? And I’m very fortunate. Yeah, Amazing Things Will Happen. Yeah, follow up the best selling book on content marketing with an inspirational self help book. You know, they’re talking about my blog. That was exactly like I should have if I was falling, if I was chasing the influence, I would have never written that book, but it’s what I wanted to write first and foremost. So …

Jason Falls
Yeah. You’re like the Seinfeld of the content world. It’s like your content’s about nothing but everything all at the same time.

C.C. Chapman
Wow. Okay, I’ll take it. Getting like a Steve Colson. My old business partner at The Advanced Guard was a massive Seinfeld fan. And he always make Seinfeld references, and I’d get like one out of 20 of them. Because I watched the show, but I wasn’t like a rabid fan. I mean, I am a fan of Jerry Seinfeld, though. After the work he puts into stuff now hearing interviews and stuff, but I’ll take that from you. I’m gonna put that in my bio now. Jason, that’s gonna be my bio.

Jason Falls
C.C. Chapman’s content is about nothing and everything all at the same time. That’s it. Quote. There you go. Awesome. C.C., where can people connect with you on the interwebs and and connect and follow you and all that good stuff?

C.C. Chapman
Yeah, so the easiest place is cc-chapman.com. It’s got links to everything. That’s where my blog is and my occasional newsletter. On most social networks. I’m cc_chapman, Twitter and Instagram are where I spend most of my days. Just say hi, let me know you know, tell me tell me a strange fact about Jason and we’ll go from there.

Jason Falls
That’ll take you all day.

C.C. Chapman
I know right?

Jason Falls
I’ve got strange facts, man. As well as everybody out there listening can tell CC and I go back a long way and are pretty good friends so, as ridiculous as some of this was it was a lot of fun. C.C., thanks for stopping by, buddy.

C.C. Chapman
Hey, man. Thanks for having me.

Transcribed by otter.ai

The Winfluence theme music is “One More Look” featuring Jacquire King and Stephan Sharp by The K Club found on Facebook Sound Collection.

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