Dr. Karen Freberg is heading into her 11th year of teaching public relations at the University of Louisville. She also teaches a master’s level course for one of my alma maters … West Virginia University. Dr. Freberg started teaching a new version of public relations as the 2000s were winding down and social media had started to work its way into businesses and brands. She is one of the pioneer comms professors who has redefined what is taught in the classroom about PR.
And, as one might expect from a leader in the space, Dr. Freberg has written a new text. The book is called Discovering Public Relations and while it is a college textbook, it’s written and designed to be a strong business book as well. In fact, at the end of each chapter, Dr. Freberg outlines which topics are must-knows for taking and passing the Accreditation in Public Relations course. That APR standard is the industry’s designation for, “I know my stuff.”
This book is great for students learning about the craft of PR, and influence marketing from a PR perspective. But it’s also good for business owners and brands who need to understand what public relations in today’s world means. Heck, it’s even a great resource for influencers who want to learn how to leverage PR partners to enhance their content, and their revenue.
I asked Dr. Freberg to talk about what the book has to offer, but we also find out about her journey from four-time All-American college athlete to teaching college athletes and students all about PR, media relations and, yes, influence marketing.
Find Dr. Freberg on LinkedIn.
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Winfluence Transcript – Dr. Karen Freberg – Discovering Public Relations
Jason Falls
Hello again friends thanks for listening to Winfluence – The Influence Marketing Podcast. You’ve heard me say on the show before the influence marketing isn’t new. In fact, the way I frame influence marketing versus influencer marketing? Well, it’s something we’ve been doing for well over a century or more public relations is generally what I refer to when I say that. I’m a PR guy by trade and all media relations is in my opinion is identifying people who have influence over an audience and reaching out to them to help persuade that audience to try buy or think differently, which is exactly what we talk about in influence marketing.
Jason Falls
Dr. Karen Freberg teaches public relations here in my hometown of Louisville, Kentucky. She’s been a professor of Communications at the University of Louisville for over 10 years now. She also teaches a master’s level course for one of my alma mater is West Virginia University, Dr. Freberg started teaching a new version of public relations as the 2000s were winding down, and social media had started to work its way into businesses and brands. She is one of the Pioneer comms professors who has redefined what is taught in the classroom about PR. And as one might expect from a leader in the space. Dr. Freberg has written a new text. The book is called Discovering Public Relations. And while it’s a college textbook, it’s written and designed to be a strong business book as well. In fact, at the end of each chapter, Dr. Freberg outlines which topics are must nose for taking and passing the accreditation in public relations course. That APR standard is the industry’s designation for I know my stuff. So Dr. Freberg’s book helps illustrate that. This book is great for students learning about the craft of PR and influence marketing from a PR perspective, but it’s also good for business owners and brands who need to understand what public relations in today’s world means. Heck, it’s even a great resource for influencers who want to learn how to leverage PR partners to enhance their content and their revenue.
Jason Falls
I asked Dr. Freberg to talk about what the book has to offer. But we also find out about her journey from four time All-American college athlete to teaching college athletes and students all about PR Media Relations. And yes, influencer marketing. The doctor is in! Karen Freberg comes your way next on Winfluence.
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Jason Falls
Karen, you’ve been teaching PR now at U of L for a while coming up on 10 years. I know you also teach a graduate course at my alma mater, West Virginia University, and you did your graduate work at Tennessee. So what caused you to go into teaching communications rather than getting out into the practice and being a PR person?
Dr. Karen Freberg
That’s a great question, Jason. Um, I’ve actually always wanted to teach. It’s one of those things where I felt like my calling came really early for me, I remember sitting like, in my fifth grade classroom in elementary school, just thinking, I want to do this, I want to do what my teachers do me. I just didn’t know in what field. And I actually thought I would actually go pre med in the science round, because I love science. I love biology. But I went to the University of Florida for my bachelor’s degree. And I took an anatomy class and I fainted in the class. So I thought, well, Karen, you know, you might want to rethink things. But actually, the way I got into communications was kind of funny. In high school, I grew up in California, and I was a track and field athlete. My dad competed at UCLA, and I tried basketball. But my coach told me, I was too nice to play, I needed to work on my aggression. So So I did track and didn’t hurt anybody. But I actually used the internet. You know, like my parents were very much ahead of the game with technology. In 95, they gave out my sisters and I have two sisters, each our own domain name as a birthday present. And so I tell my students, my first digital footprint on the internet, was when I designed my first website, and it was a fan site for the actor Val Kilmer. And I always, well, I always have to pre you know, present that with my students. Now. It’s like, okay, remember, Top Gun, remember? Okay. 13 years old, don’t judge me. So as I’ve gotten older, and he now being, you know, have you evolved for 10 years, people like who like, or the other thing is, like, really? Dr. Freberg? Why am I like, Look, you can’t watch Top Gun. But I use the internet. Well, that was that’s I was like short live, but I actually use my site to promote myself as a student, because I grew up in a very small town. And I thought, well, I’m going to get a scholarship for track in college. I should, you know, tell us about what I’m doing. tell my story. It’s a early early stages of communication and PR, I had my own blog, I had a newsletter. And fast forward to the time that I got to Florida on a full scholarship. It was actually my academic athletic advisor that saw what I was doing. Saw the fact that, you know, probably pre med was not going to be my major. And she said, Karen, why don’t you go into PR? And I’m like, what’s that? Is that a real major, little that I know that Florida actually had a really strong program in PR, and I took my first class and, and loved it. And so went to USC studied strategic public relations, while finishing up my eligibility and track, realizing that I’m not probably going to be able to go pro or throw things for a long time. So I had to, you know, think about what I want to do for the rest of my life and the next chapter. And I’ve always loved technology and social. So that’s one of the things that I wanted to do. And then went to Tennessee for my PhD. And it was actually at Tennessee, where I had a professor, Dr. Lisa fall, who encouraged me to really think about online teaching. And this was like 2009. So you know, a good while ago, and that’s kind of where West Virginia came up. I actually applied to create a social media class for them online, but they actually asked me to teach PR and so they’ve actually been my longest employer.
Jason Falls
Wow, that’s cool, Go Mountaineers!
Unknown Speaker
I know, yeah. Well, and you know,
Jason Falls
It makes perfect sense. You know, if you were, you know, in the, in the 1990s, having, you know, your own website, your own newsletter, your own blog, and building things out when the the internet was in its nascent stages, in the late 90s, early 2000s makes a ton of sense. Before we get into the next sort of question about PR and influencers in social media. SEC and Pac 10, or I guess, Pac 12 now student athlete, that’s, that’s pretty big stuff. You were you were top tier were you?
Dr. Karen Freberg
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s, um, yeah, it seems like a lifetime ago. Yeah, I was two time sec champion at Florida. Four time All-American and I was a runner up in Pac 12. And then I was able to actually go to the Olympic trials where I was a finalist in 2004. But in high school, like my parents and friends and classmates always remind me of this. I have a tendency to get really close to things but not really kind of make it to the end and so I actually was a quarter of an inch off the girls high school national Record started.
Jason Falls
Oh my goodness. Wow. Yeah. And I was you were you were you were a shot putter, right?
Dr. Karen Freberg
Oh, yes. I tell my students, I used to throw things for a living, which, as a result of that I’ve never had any classroom issues.
Jason Falls
So Oh, yeah, that’s, uh, yeah, that would intimidate me too, if you could, if I knew you, could you pick me up from across the room?
Dr. Karen Freberg
Well, I can’t do that now at all. But, of course, my throwing videos live in infamy on YouTube. And so my students of course, being in PR and social, they’re like, okay, who is this professor and so that those videos come up. And I remember actually had to reassure my students when I first came to you evelle because they saw those videos. This is our professor, we’re gonna die. I’m like, No, guys. This is track. I wasn’t competitors. I’m a professor now. Huge difference. I don’t. But
Jason Falls
you can tell them you should tell them. No, I did track because the basketball coach said I wasn’t mean enough. So
Dr. Karen Freberg
Yeah, that is true. That is true.
Jason Falls
That’s funny. So okay, so let’s, let’s go back. So you got into teaching PR, I think just after the big shift in the mid 2000s, when social media became a thing for brands, which meant you you were a student studying it during the shift, you were obviously using it to promote yourself. I think David Meerman Scott’s New Rules of Marketing and PR came out in 2005. So that was about the time you were in school. That was when I started advising clients on blogs and social media strategy. So it was a whole new world. Did you realize that going into your first teaching assignments that you weren’t going to be teaching the things that you learned in your traditional PR classes? Just a year or two prior?
Dr. Karen Freberg
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I mean, you’re absolutely right around that period of time. I was I remember first hearing about Facebook. Basically, when I was an undergrad, and definitely even at USC, the athletic department actually was already banning student athletes for using Facebook during the time and I’m like, Okay, well, this is interesting. And then it was actually my PhD, where I remember at Tennessee, I said, I wanted to explore social media. And I knew that I was going to be definitely have to be very persistent in my studies and research teaching ideas, because I got a lot of pushback, a lot of people said, Karen, this is a fad, you should do something more traditional, or it’s going to go away, or it’s not really that innovative, and how it impacts PR, or, or the other people have said, well, PR has no part of social media marketing or advertising. And I I guess this is kind of where the student at former student athlete comes in Jason, where I’m like, Well, I’m hearing a lot of cans and don’ts. And that’s not in my vocabulary. So I’m going to do this. But I saw the power of it, because I was able to, as you said, I was able to see it firsthand, I view being a student athlete, like you are your most important client, you know, doing media views, shifting and managing your brand, formulating relationships, telling your story. So I thought, yeah, this is this has been working for me. And I know that this is going to be the forward direction of where the field is going. And so I just kind of stuck to my guns. And so I was able to help co create and teach the first social media class at Tennessee before I came to evelle. Because that’s actually why I was hired at UofL was to design and implement and execute a social media class.
Jason Falls
Nice. That’s great stuff. So I wonder in the 10 years that you’ve been at UofL or 10 or 11 years you’ve been teaching, I would imagine there’s been a bit of a shift in how prepared the communication students are maybe their technical skills. How does a student today compared to one in 2010, let’s say?
Dr. Karen Freberg
Wooh, boy, I would say you know, there’s been a lot of like similarities that haven’t changed. I mean, I do feel that the communication students that I had back in 2010, to now a lot of them are driven, a lot of them really understand that emphasis on communication and storytelling, they really get that. I would say that the students that I have right now in 2020, in light of everything that’s going on with the global pandemic is they’re motivated and driven. And I I’m very fortunate to be at UVA, because I’ve I’ve bragged about the students that come out of yoga or the students that I’ve had in class, because they’re some of the hardest working and creative students I’ve had. And that’s been something that’s been so rewarding to see. And I think what’s different right now, especially 2020, is that you have so many students that are coming in with so many different skill sets, in terms of whether it’s photography or graphic design, creative expressions, whether it’s through music or art, and they’re able to really bring that all together, but I do also see differences and challenges between 2010 students and 2020 2010 students. Didn’t face some of the same social media challenges, you did see cyber rolling and some of those other elements in 2010, but not to the extent that you see it right now. Or even the threat of canceled culture, I have students that one of the things, they want to be active on social, they want to be present and tell their story. But in the back of their mind, they say, Yeah, I wonder if I post something, if I’m going to get cancelled. So even you know, like, talk, having that conversation with students. Now, that was something that I would have never have expected. I mean, you talk about what to do, what not to do on social and PR, to kind of manager and present your brand, but I’m having new conversations, addressing some of the challenges and obstacles and coaching students, you know, to how to strategize and work through them more now than ever before. Interesting, it
Jason Falls
definitely puts canceled culture and, and all the social changes that we have had to, you know, sort of witness and be a part of, in the last year. So in a very different perspective, when you look at it that way. Yeah. So you’ve written a book, a new book, discovering public relations, I believe is the title. And it’s pretty well done. It’s an it’s a kind of an all encompassing text on public relations. You’ve been teaching the discipline for a number of years now. Are there just not enough options for modern PR textbooks out there? Was that the impetus for writing this book?
Dr. Karen Freberg
Well, yeah, it’s interesting that you mentioned that, Jason, and thank you for the kind words, and I have to say to chapter three, is by far my favorite chapter, someone’s featured in that and was a game changer. But actually, you know, it’s interesting with the pure book. And to give you a little context, with the academic field, I actually, I’ve written several books before, and I had a social media book was sage, that it had done really, really well. But I got this contract, literally about maybe a month before my social media book came out with them. And my publishers, and editors actually pulled me aside, they’re like, you know, Karen, the intro to PR market for books is really competitive. Because there’s been, you know, like, I was going to be competing with books that have like 15-10 10th edition that have been around for decades, by established PR professionals and professors. And so they said, it’s going to be a tough market to break in. And I knew that it was going to be a different kind of approach. I didn’t want something more modern, because kind of like with my social media book, I felt like Goldilocks, when I was looking at some of the books, I’m like, Okay, this is too much theory, this is out of date. Why are we still talking about some things that were relevant? You know, our practice in the 70s, when this is, you know, 20 in, you know, 20. So I really wanted to also take an approach of really integrating social throughout, instead of just saying, oh, here’s a chapter on social, I wanted it to be throughout. And I wanted to bring in new case studies, because I feel like we’ve all it’s important to know the title, okay, so it’s important to know about these, like, all the historical both cases, but there’s been so much that’s been done, that really is changing the field. Plus, with each of the individual features I have. So I have an individual Game Changer feature, people that are literally changing the game and PR, including yourself, Jason. I wanted to showcase their voices, because in every book that I saw, it was the same people, or you know, like, you didn’t really see any diversity. And there were certain chapters that I really like, based on the reviewers, I really had to fight for, like my diversity chapter, I actually said, we need this. And this was before everything that happened this year, I’m like, we need to have this. And the other thing that I wanted to do, too, is really kind of shake up the market. Because there’s there’s a couple of books that have been kind of the gold standard and then endorsed by prsa. And so my view of this book is, well, I’m going to be the American Express black card where it’s diverse as modern, you can use it everywhere. It’s not just gold of so it’s done actually really, really well, you know, for the first semester, so it just was published in August. And it’s been used all over the US. It’s been adopted in other countries. Even the actor Ryan Reynolds has a copy because he’s featured 11 times and so he was very motivated to know that. He’s mentioned 11 times when Hugh Jackman is only mentioned once in the book, so.
Jason Falls
Oh, oh, wow. That’s that’s the way to get there. Yeah.
Dr. Karen Freberg
Oh, yes.
Jason Falls
That’s good. So 11 is the number if you want Ryan Reynolds to know your stuff, you got to mention him 11 times.
Dr. Karen Freberg
Exactly. Exactly.
Jason Falls
So So now, this is obviously you know, a textbook but as I was reading it, and you know, it comes across like a textbook but it’s something it’s it’s it’s easy to read, it’s it’s engaging, it’s entertaining, it’s interesting, but it also struck me is like this is a real Good business book for professionals. And so I wonder if, if that was an intent or if that is just sort of a, a convenient byproduct of you trying to write a modern PR text?
Dr. Karen Freberg
Well, that was actually by design. And one of the things I, I love doing competitive analysis and SWOT analysis and situational analysis, I feel like that’s, you know, part of the thing that you have to do is, you know, being a strategic communication professional. So I looked at all of the books. And I was trying to put myself in the, like, the mindset of my students, and I remember there were some students, Jason, and you might know just from, you know, your experiences in the classroom where I looked at the book, and I’m like, is there actually a real person that has written this book, I don’t even know who they are, or they don’t have any personality. And I felt that in an intro book, especially for students, this is the first gateway into the field. And if you can’t get them excited about the field, how are they going to continue on. And so I was looking at some of the intro books, and I felt like I was kind of embracing and the mode, the character from The Incredibles, I feel like she’s my spirit animal. And I just felt like, there was some books, I’m like, I can’t read like, I’m bored. Or this is not engaging to me. And so one of the things I actually did too, because there were actually a few chapters that I felt, it was kind of hard for me to write it, I’d be interested in your writing style and your writing approach with your books. But I actually use Google Voice, I opened up a Google Doc, and I just did a presentation. So there’s some of that, you know, you get that kind of conversational tone. In my books, just because I basically hit record, I’m like, Okay, I’m gonna have this transcribed, I’m going to edit, and make sure that it’s very conversational. But to the point with, tying into the business professionals, I feel like that you have to be tied, like, I can’t just rely and be in my office, thinking about theory all day. And I tell my students like this is a very applied field. And I want to make sure that what you’re learning from this book is relevant and accepted in the industry. And so we get that. Comments all the time about what we do in academia is like, Well, yeah, you might look at my work in this situation, but it’s not gonna work in the real world. So I really wanted to kind of tap into making sure that it was connected to what the industry was doing. And that has gotten me a lot of praise. But I’ve had also some people that have said, well, that’s not academic enough or not theory driven. I’m like, okay, that’s your opinion.
Jason Falls
Yeah, that’s well for and here’s what really struck me as being super useful as a business publication for the PR pro out there, the core comms person, this book is really valuable, because each chapter summary has like a highlight of what you need to know, for the exam and such to become an accredited PR professional. So that’s really valuable for people who are in their, you know, 40s and 50s, or NPR want accreditation, they’re not in college, they’re not buying college textbooks. That’s, that’s another sort of useful extension of what you’ve done here. It’s well done.
Dr. Karen Freberg
Thank you. Well, it’s funny, like when I was talking with my editor, like we were actually I went through the APR exam, and there were certain cards was like, okay, it was very easy saying, okay, here in chapter two, we cover this, but when they have a section on social media, I had to put Well, all of it, you know, all the chapters address this. And so I asked my editor, like, is that okay to put down because I don’t have like a separate chapter. But everything that I’m talking about is inner woven within the entire book. And they were like, yeah, that’s why I carry. But yeah, we also did the APR exam. And then there’s actually a certificate for public relations that students can take. And so there’s a Yeah, all of those factors, dotting the i’s, crossing the T’s and making sure that we were kind of tying into the industry expectations for the APR exam and other professional guidelines.
Jason Falls
Very good. I really love the historical nuggets you have in there. I don’t I don’t think I ever knew that the first press release was written in 1906 to help spin a labor conflict for Johnny rock fillers, colon railroad businesses, if I was ever taught that, in in my PR classes, I don’t remember it. What are some of the fun things you learned as you research this?
Dr. Karen Freberg
Well, it was actually I found I actually one cool discovery that I made. It was actually one of the coolest conversations, but it was like one of those things like Well, I was kind of meant to go into this field. I was actually my second cousin once removed. So she’s a bit older than me. She was out in Boston. And so I was talking to her about writing this book. I’m like, yeah, I’m writing about PR, this is what we’re doing. And she just, you know, casually said, Oh, can I yeah, you know, my first graduate assistant position actually was working with someone in PR, you might know of him. And I’m like, oh, Ingrid, like, Who was it? And she was like, Oh, it was Edward Bernays. I’m like, What? Yeah, so that was something so I was able to talk to her a little bit. I’m like, Okay. Like from my reading, I’m like, What was he like? So he she was able to give me a little bit of context. And so she said, Yeah, like, looking at what I’m doing. She’s like, yeah, like, she thought, yeah, he would definitely approve what you’re doing. So that was kind of cool. But yeah, in terms of the research angle, like I loved learning everyone’s stories from the game changers features, it was interesting, like, I had a few people that said, yeah, that I went through the natural path, or there were others saying, I kind of fell into PR, and then others that said, Well, I’m going into this new specialization because of my background in PR. And then, um, there were definitely a lot of case studies that I really enjoyed writing about, I loved the, you know, talking about kind of the International case studies in the international PR section, because I think that’s always fascinating, that sometimes is missing, I tell my students, the world is a big place, we need to understand that there’s things prs practice outside of the US, and just it’s been fun to kind of look and continually be inspired by current events. So I really tried to make the book as current as possible the current case study, so I love researching all of those.
Jason Falls
Okay, I’m gonna throw it another question in here that I didn’t plan on asking you. But when you talk about the international case studies, I’d love to get your perspective on this, because I’ve asked four or five people on this show what they think about this idea, I have a perception about a very distinct, nuanced difference. And I can’t quite put my finger on what the difference is. But I wonder if you perceive public relations in the United States to be different, in some ways, from public relations in the United Kingdom. Because when I look at PR, case studies and professionals and firms, and you know, the things that they talk about in the UK, and then I look at what we talk about in the States, I see, I get the feeling that there’s some subtle differences there. I can’t quite define them. But I perceive PR to be practiced different there than it is here. Am I have I lost? Have I lost my mind?
Dr. Karen Freberg
No, no, absolutely not. Like, I definitely feel that, you know, there’s kind of universal global practices, but every location and place has their unique twist on things. And I have a lot of friends in the UK. And they talk a little bit about the focus on certain practices more than others. And so for me, like when I look at the UK, they really do kind of focus on the traditional aspects of PR, more kind of non, like technical level, but more of the managerial level. I mean, that’s kind of where I see it, there seems to be a lot more overhead rather than the tactical level. But I would say, you know, the other example that I use a lot of times with my classes, how PR is practiced in South Africa, I had a chance to actually live down in Cape Town as part of my master’s program, interning in the fashion and consumer business, which I tell my students, double wars product is very real. fashion designers are a special group of individuals, but it was an eye opening experience. And what I realized down there was it was a hustle and bustle everyone was working way harder than I’ve ever seen him. But there were certain practices that if you did here in the US, you’d be like, well, that’s not necessarily how we do things. But it was completely accepted down in, in South Africa. So every place has their differences. But it’s important for us to know like, what are those differences? And what is accepted, what’s not?
Jason Falls
Yeah, I get the feeling here. And this is a very rudimentary way of saying this vibe that I get. And it’s not altogether accurate. And it’s probably gonna piss off people in the US. But the vibe that I get when I look at UK versus us, I feel like if I were to hire a PR firm in the United Kingdom, I would be very happy with the results. And they would probably exceed my expectations, and they would do a dynamite job. And if I hired one in the United States, it’d be kind of a crapshoot. I don’t know if I’d get what I wanted out of it. And I don’t know if that’s fair or not. But that’s that’s my perception.
Dr. Karen Freberg
Well, it’s, I mean, I would have to say, Jason, I think that’s actually one of the driving forces that I wrote this book because there’s been things that I’ve seen looking at PR practices. It’s been funny because I’ve been on the other side of like, I know with influencer marketing, I’ve been on the other side of being quote an influencer and I’ve gotten some notes from PR professionals from agencies trying to get press on my blog or if they want me to be a contributor, you know, write an article about them and Adweek. And there are some that I I look at my bad to share this with my students. Isn’t that what not to do? And it for me, you know, I’m looking at this with my field. I’m like, I love PR, but looking at some of the practices or some of the things I’m like, I I don’t know what’s going on. And I would have to say, you know, like one of the other reasons why I was motivated to do this book. Was PR needs, you know, kind of, you know, embrace the modern approaches, we’ve seen marketing kind of doing that we’ve seen other related fields, it needs to jumpstart the system a little bit with being ahead and of some of these trends, you know, because there’s some practices that I’ve seen here in this state’s like, really, like, this is 2020. And we’re still doing this. But you know, and the measurement side of things, too, is still an ongoing challenge. But I’ve learned just in my own work, there’s a lot of things that people are not like, focused on. And you know, and I feel one of the biggest challenges that PR faces is we’ve become so siloed in our thinking, we talk amongst ourselves without really taking a step back saying, Okay, what can psychology teachers, what marketing what is being done in computer science? How do we harness our new skills to be competitive? We’re not taking that Eagle Eye View, we’re really like, for me like that, I agree with you, Jason, you know, you SPR needs to kind of take a step back and say, Okay, how do we move forward in the next decade? How do we evolve and improve and kind of modernize the field? And so that’s been, again, one of the goals that I’ve had with this book.
Jason Falls
Well, it’s, I’m glad to hear that you think I’ve not lost my mind. And there are differences, because I’m still trying to put my finger on it. I’m, I’m getting there. But that’s one of the reasons I have this podcast is to ask these questions and throw it out there for people to talk about. So I’m certainly happy to see that influence marketing is really a significant part of the book. I mean, I was looking even in the earlier chapters, and it’s a, you know, kind of a pillar of the strategy and everything. I’m curious for your perspective as a communications professor teaching the PR pros of tomorrow is influenced marketing, modern PR, or are there still enough differences, that the disciplines are separate things?
Dr. Karen Freberg
I think that they’re inter woven. Together, I do feel that there are natural partnerships between them because I do feel that a lot of a lot of times when you do look at influencer marketing, some of the cases that you see with influencers with brands are very transactional. They’re like, okay, we have this influencer that has 100,000 followers, okay, if we give him swag or payment, you know, they’ll promote it. And that’s it. But I think with having a PR lens to influencer marketing, you’re able to build those relationships for long term create advocates, really harness creative stories. And so I feel that influencer marketing and PR are really kind of like BFFs in the New Age, it really makes it nice synergy together. So I feel like if you’re not talking about influencer marketing at all, like in PR, then I don’t know, what planet are, like, you know, time, you know, capsule you’ve been under, you know, are in to not miss that. But and that’s the other reason that I wanted to do that was to really introduce influencer market because the other books they didn’t like NPR, they didn’t really cover that, you know, if they did, they’re like, oh, here’s an influencer, like Justin Bieber, and I’m No,
Jason Falls
I wouldn’t qualify him as an influencer at all. Well, and I i love i totally agree with you. And and you know, amen from this side of the of the of the congregation on that one. But I also think that we are, and this is one of the things that I keep watching out for. And I keep saying in the influence marketing space, is we are still in this kind of dangerous crossroads of the maturation of influence marketing, and probably PR as well. If you have that attitude, what you just described that their inner woven, and if you take an influence, PR lens, and put it on influence marketing, you’re talking about building relationships, you’re talking about nurturing something over time. But then you have the advertising side of the aisle, the media planners and buyers who were like, well, influencers are just media channels, and I can pay them to get X number of impressions on a post, and they treat them very transactionally. In the in in that regard. There’s not really a relationship, it’s here’s money, use my crap. And that’s the dangerous spot that I think we’re in and where I think we’re going to continue to have some heads butting, and crashing and whatnot. And so I worry about that. So kind of on a related question to that, though, the lines have certainly blurred in the traditional media landscape. Now every publisher is now an online publisher, whether they’re a news outlet on on TV, or radio or print. And because the old ad plus subscription model isn’t as sustainable for traditional media, I think there’s also been a blurring of the lines in the separation of church and state in traditional media. So editorial versus advertising. I wonder how you approach instructing PR students these days about that separation, and the advent of sponsored content and native advertising, which can often foil PR outreach. How do you account for that in your classes these days?
Dr. Karen Freberg
Yeah, no, that’s a great question. I mean, that’s actually like native advertising and make like sponsors IP and transparency, Authenticity, all of that I have to cover when we go over ethics and legal implications. And what’s interesting is I kind of structured this peer book similar to what I did in my social media book, like because a lot of times, ethics and law was usually at the back end of a book saying, oh, if we if we have time to cover this during the semester, we’ll go ahead and we’ll get to it. But actually, what was really concerning for me, like there’s been several PR studies that have been done, that shows that ethics is the least offered course, in PR. And I feel like everything that you’ve gone over with native advertising, media, literacy, digital literacy, all those things, I’m like, you need to have that like right up in front or even have a whole class dedicated to this. And so I feel like there’s only so much I can bring to the table that everything that I interwoven, whether I’m talking about influencer marketing, or other related disciplines related to PR and social, I always bring back the ethics part like the lens like Okay, are we misleading? Anybody? is are we transparent? Are we authentic? Are we true to ourselves? So absolutely native advertising. And it’s been frustrating to kind of see that there have been cases where you’ve seen native advertisers that have disclosed that it is. So I tried to educate my students there, because I’ve had a few students, you know, who aren’t kind of digitally savvy, so they’re able to kind of pick up on it. I mean, kids these days are smart. But there’s some that aren’t aware, they’re not aware of what the difference is between date of advertising and what’s not. And so it’s important to kind of educate those and take the time. So I feel as the platform’s change, these ethical challenges arise. And we like we I know, I know, my fellow colleagues and professionals who teach PR and social, we have to stay on top of these ethical trends as well.
Jason Falls
Yeah, it’s it’s definitely, the lines are blurred. And therefore it’s, it’s hard to know, you know, what’s right and what’s wrong sometimes and FTC disclosure aside, there’s still a wall that you have to jump over, I think if you’re a PR professional, or an influence marketing professional, on that PR, sort of bend where it’s about relationships, yeah, reaching out to people. And you know, if they meet you with a hard Well, you need to talk to my advertising people, or you need to talk to my manager, you got it, you got to write a check first, that changes the dynamic of the execution, it doesn’t necessarily make it you know, worse or better. It just makes it different. And it’s not, you know, it’s not a relationship at that point, it’s a transaction and that, I don’t know, being a PR guy by trade that kind of irks me a little bit. So
Dr. Karen Freberg
Yeah, no, I mean, I’m 100%. And you do see cases and brands that and, you know, you know, campaigns that have done that. And it’s very easy to tell, because you can kind of read I think one of the things that we do really well on PR is where we really rely on empathy. And so we can kind of read the emotions and stuff and I can tell there’s some influencers who are either very, very passionate and really believe in a cause of their promoting as an influencer or brand product. And then there’s other cases I’m like, Okay, this is so staged, then it’s painful to see. And so it’s all about Yeah, as you said, Jason building the relationships that authentic and true. Like if I had to endorse the decaf coffee as an influencer, it would not go over that.
Dr. Karen Freberg
That’d be like me, me promoting non alcoholic bourbon. Like, what? What like, what is that?
Dr. Karen Freberg
Exactly what?
Jason Falls
Flavored water? What are you talking about? anyway? Well, Karen, this is awesome. Where can people find the book if they want to buy it and how can they connect with you online?
Dr. Karen Freberg
Yeah, absolutely. So my book is available on Amazon. If you just search discovering public relations Freberg it should come up. It’s awesome. Because chapter three again, is a rockstar chapter and you might hear you know, see a familiar face there. But I’m all on social. You know, I’ve had kfreberg pretty much everywhere it’s KFREBERG. I am also one of the nice Karens. I always have to disclose that with people because my name good ole 2020 Um,
Jason Falls
Well, I know you well enough that I know that naturally, I never would have connected you know, Karen’s to you, just because I know you but I’m glad you clarified that.
Dr. Karen Freberg
Yeah, why I’ve told my students that in my free time I’m going to try to do a PR campaign to sell there’s my name is like not okay. But, um, but yeah, I’m also you know, I have a blog KarenFreberg.com/blog? And yeah, I’d love to connect with anyone. And you know, and if anyone has questions about the book, or if they want to see what is going on in my classes that you have, well, we’re hybrid this semester. So we’ll be on all part of the Zoom University and I’d love to, you know, invite anyone who wants to join in.
Jason Falls
That’s awesome. Well, thanks for being on the show. And for the book, it’s good to know. There’s new relevant texts out there for both students and professionals to dive into so great work love the book.
Dr. Karen Freberg
Thank you so much Jason.
Transcribed by otter.ai
The Winfluence theme music is “One More Look” featuring Jacquire King and Stephan Sharp by The K Club found on Facebook Sound Collection.
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