Kristy Sammis is the chair and executive director of the Influencer Marketing Association. The non-profit industry association is attempting to bring uniformity, standardization and cohesiveness across the influencer marketing industry. In this episode of  Winfluence – The Influence Marketing Podcast  Kristy and I discuss the IMA, unionizing influencers, standardizing metrics and the conflict of transactional versus relational influence strategies. 

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Winfluence – The Influence Marketing Podcast is a companion piece to my forthcoming influencer marketing book, Winfluence: Reframing Influencer Marketing to Ignite Your Brand, set to publish in early 2021 from Entrepreneur Press. I interview the Who’s Who of Influencer Marketing weekly — from brand managers to software creators, and from agency strategists to influencers themselves. If you know someone who should be a guest on the show, shoot me an email at jason – at – jasonfalls – dot – com.

Winfluence Podcast – Kristy Sammis Transcript

Jason Falls 0:00
Hello again friends thanks for listening to influence the influence Marketing Podcast. Kristy Sammis is the chair and executive director of the Influencer Marketing Association. They are a nonprofit industry association that is attempting to bring uniformity standardization and cohesiveness across the influencer marketing industry.

Jason Falls 0:49
Now for disclosure sake, I am a paying member of the IMA. They’re presently offering some helpful webinars and networking opportunities to members but because all the board members and staff from Mostly volunteer and have other full time jobs. It’s one of those trade associations that makes incremental progress as they can but isn’t quite to the funding or resource level where they can implement sweeping measures. However, they’ve recently shifted into a new gear with rebranding. They’ve been around for a few years now. A new website renewed member outreach, and the future looks bright for the organization.

Jason Falls 1:22
Kristy and I talk about its challenges the industry obstacles and opportunities, and then hit my favorite topic of late the conflict in the philosophical approach to influence marketing between advertising and PR. Kristy, by the way, has been in the influence marketing business for almost two decades. She formerly worked on the strategic communications team at WalMart, led communications for BlogHer, one of the original blogger conferences that launched the world of influencer marketing in the mid 2000s. She owns her own influencer marketing agency now based in the Bay Area called Clever. Kristy Sammis is a name to know in the business gang she’s the leader of its most noticeable trade association and here’s my chat with her on Winfluence.

Jason Falls 2:10
The IMA the Influencer Marketing Association is the official trade organization committed to protecting the authenticity and ethics of influencer marketing according to its website. Why don’t you, Kristy, Give me your sort of definition of what this organization is supposed to be and who’s supposed to be a part of it.

Kristy Sammis 2:32
Well, it is supposed to be an organization made up of everybody who is a influencer marketing practitioner. So that includes the influencers and creators themselves. Includes brands, marketers, PR professionals, and the platforms and service providers, as well as agencies who work with us You know, in and around influencer marketing. That’s what’s for the ideas that collectively, we want to come together to make the industry better. And that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But overall, we’ve joked lovingly over the last 10 1215 years that this space is the Wild West. And there really is no one neutral nonprofit, don’t have a horse in the race, really, group of people coming together to say, this is what it should look like. These are the best practices. This is, you know, these are, this is what we should be measuring. This is what programs look like this is how much programs should cost This is how much influencers should charge. You know, this is how we know if a program was successful right now. It is a very, it’s not just the Wild West. It’s also a very you know, There’s lots of disparate pockets not really talking to each other and not sharing data. And you know, one person comes out and says, we have the answers, you use our tools, and we can tell you how you’re performing. And those tools may or may not look like anybody else’s tools and the answers may look different. And if you’re a, you know, say you have a great product, a great brand and you’re like, I want to do an influencer marketing program, where do I start? You’re going to get us 10 different marketers, you’re going to get 10 different answers. And we want to kind of bring some clarity to the whole thing.

Kristy Sammis 4:38
So we’re really rooted in measurement, standardization. And shared language, across the, you know, across the industry. And more important than ever is, you know, making sure when we say want to protect the integrity of the industry, it’s really critical. Now, more than To be inclusive, and make sure that diverse voices are being listened to. And so being protective of that, and being protective of the influencers and creators that way.

Jason Falls 5:09
So I want to dive into that. I want to unpack that in a lot of different ways. Yeah, I had I had an idea of what order I wanted to go in. But you you just kind of walked right into a question I have on my list here. So and there’s a couple of things related in this conversation or in this question, too. So two groups of fashion and beauty influencers, one in the United Kingdom and one in the US have have formed these influencer creator unions. And on this show, in the coming weeks, I’m going to be talking to Tabitha Hawkins, who’s the head of the American version of that the Association of influencers and content creators. So I’m going to be talking to her on this show. It’s my understanding that both of those organizations were basically founded with the idea of fighting for equal opportunity, equal pay, making sure diverse voices are heard as you do. You just said and so I think they have a focal point of sort of the equality issue and I don’t think anyone is going to argue that that is a necessary mission and something that we need to have happen. But one of the things that that walks that starting in Union walks into his, you know, sort of equal pay across the board when you take away Let’s say the protected classes factor. And and you just talk about, okay, equal pay for influencer marketing for different types of influencers, different verticals, different, you know, platforms that they’re executing on different goals for the influencer execution. There’s so many layers that make none of that possible to standardize and streamline. Where do we start?

Kristy Sammis 6:54
That’s a very big question. But it is true. Maybe it’s Not well, first of all, let me back up and just say hi to Tabitha. She’s awesome. And, you know, I’m glad you’re speaking with her. Their mission is fantastic. I’m not as familiar and as personally familiar with the group in the UK and those but they are two organizations that were started by creators for creators which isn’t to say that the IMA isn’t but we are more so coming from the from the other side and I hate saying it that way because we’re not we’re not opposed. You know, we we want to make it better for everyone and in order to do that we need to have input from brands platforms, tools, you know, metrics companies from everybody. So the I don’t know how far down the we can standardize this completely road will get, but we can and aim to offer transparency and that has been the cornerstone of every challenge. Every problem every bad behavior we’ve seen over the years comes from a lack of transparency. There are it’s easy to place blame where there isn’t necessarily any people aren’t trying to be behaving badly. They don’t know what to charge. They undercharged because they don’t you know, an influencer might under charge significantly because she doesn’t know what her worth is. Or somebody might overcharge because they can get away with it. And when you don’t know what each other is charging, and you don’t know what each other is getting paid. It just it it breeds fear, resentment. And it turns out, you know, despairity so the first step to anything and you know how much people are getting paid, but also how much a program should cost, what approach Well, you know, what success looks like? To your point there’s, there’s so many factors that go into every single program. Your program for puppy products, is probably going to be more engaging in the various aspects then then a program for bladder control. And we’ve made you gotta go.

Kristy Sammis 9:10
So, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, we’re still talking about advertising, right? And we’re talking about what people are interested in. But just to to, to readdress the diversity, inclusion, pay disparity, equality, all of that, you know, there’s there’s bit not to diminish the fact that we’re still there’s still a lot of work to be done period. Race aside. Now, we’re really entering in this into this period where we’re talking about being anti racist. And agencies need to be there agencies needs to know and I come from an agency background needs to be there to help guide brands to get there because it’s not enough to sit on the sidelines anymore and hope that these uncomfortable conversations are going to go away. Instead, now is the time to be using influencers and especially black influencers. To to change the way your company looks and sounds. So there’s a lot to unravel. Right? And I get very excited and I want to talk about all, you know, thousands of things at one time. Right?

Kristy Sammis 10:15
So, okay, the next thing we get to talk about then is, you know, I have anytime that the you know, equal pay or pay scales, or, you know, what should you charge for what? Anytime that conversation comes up, my mind immediately goes to something that I have actually tested over time in work with my clients, which is, I can go out and find someone who has 100,000 followers on a given social network. If we’re if we’re gonna let’s for the sake of this argument, we’ll limit to the online influencers for the moment. So I’ve got 100 somebody with 100,000 followers and their engagement rate is, you know, 1.2% or whatever that is, right. So, I’m gonna get, you know, 1200 people to do something. I can also go out and find some Someone with 10,000 followers whose engagement rate is 15%. And that 10,000 follower person is worth way more to me than someone with 100,000 followers. So even when you just start the simple task of trying to standardize and level the playing field from a followers versus engagement rate standpoint, you’re gonna get a lot of people pushing back against that not just on the influencer side, the ones with the 300,000 followers are like, well, I’m worth four times as much as that person because I have a big audience, but also from the brand side who they’re saying, Wait a minute, we shouldn’t be paying you as much because you’re not as effective. So I see this as being just one big cage match of people yelling at each other.

Kristy Sammis 11:46
Well, that’s certainly one way to describe our industry. And it’s not incorrect. And so you’re, you’re completely right. And there are even more things to measure. I mean, it gets really interesting. To get really crazy when you’re talking about Okay, well there’s there’s reach, you know, there’s reach and how are we defining reach? How are we defining followers? How are we define okay? Then we talk about engagement and everybody’s really interested in engagement because it makes it look like okay, somebody saw this content and did it thing, but what what actually constitutes engagement? You know, Where, where, how are you measuring that? Is it a like, Is it a? Is it a retweet? Is it a is somebody re instagramming it? Did they add it to their story? Did they include it in a montage they put on YouTube? I mean, there’s a million, not a million, but there’s a lot of different ways to even there’s a lot of arguing in this cage match about even what engagement is. And then you get into the complex world of what’s good engagement versus bad and you’re 100% right, the more the more followers somebody has, the the less engagement they have. But, you know, So to your point, yes, somebody who has 15% engagement on 10,000 followers is probably a better bet than somebody who has 100,000 followers with 1% engagement unless we start talking that but that engagement isn’t, isn’t going to be consistent across the board. If we go back to my thing where you have the 10,000 person follower talking about bladder leakage, and the hundred thousand followers person talking about puppies, it’s gonna change how they perform. I mean, of course there’s you can, you know how it’s gonna play out to some extent, but there’s always these other external factors.

Jason Falls 13:35
Yeah, I also think there’s a big challenge, especially on the brand and agency side of really being able to leverage and use influencer influencers and influence marketing for, you know, purposes beyond branding and awareness, because that seems that’s the easy answer. That’s Oh, you’ve got reach and you’ve got frequency, and you’ve got impressions. I understand that. Those are advertising metrics. I’ll pay for For a certain number of those, and if I’m paying at a rate that’s comparable to other channels, then I can see some value in what what this is doing for me. But I think we haven’t yet gotten to a point to where most agencies and or most brands are designing influence programs that are designed to convert that are designed to actually persuade people to do something. And I don’t think until we get to that point, we’ll really be able to see the true value of what an influence are can bring to the table when you think,

Kristy Sammis 14:31
Yes, well, yes, I do. And that, of course, is the Holy Grail. I think that you know, the mistakes we made early days. And, you know, like I my agency’s been around for 10 years. So, we’ve been we’ve been in this space for a long time. I, you know, it’s in space before that. But early days, when it was just bloggers, we didn’t call them influencers, just bloggers. Because the only college kids were on Facebook and Twitter was Weird nobody was really sure what that was about. Um, so you know, and Instagram didn’t exist yet. So we’re on blogging you bloggers, people like oh, well, hey, it’s okay, that’s cool that we can put ads on your blog. But what if we could just be like, hey, buy this thing from my post and everybody tried it and everybody failed because that’s not why people were reading blogs people were reading blogs to escape and for pleasure and it was interrupted people didn’t like that experience that you know, but so really well not but it really solidified the fact that influencer led blogging, you know, at that time was about awareness. And it and it is important, but there’s so many more factors now and things to consider in ways that the consumer consumer expectations are changing where before you know, just a coupon code, or here buy this now wasn’t working, it’s starting to come back and we’ve seen that a lot and Instagram Of course in the swipe up And, you know, just that we’re buying more stuff online now than ever, and retail is completely in a tailspin. And and it’s just it’s going through a massive overhaul, you know? So, yes, influencer is by enlarge and awareness play. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t other ways of, you know, we want to be able to measure the impact of particular programs offline, which you know, as as, okay, if people were exposed to certain pieces of branded content, they then go to the store, how do they behave in the store? And whether we like it or not to technology is getting sophisticated enough to the point where we’re going to be able to start tracking that not you know, with loyalty cards, but also with mobile tracking, and mobile targeting and it’s, it’s there, the science is, is out there, and that’s what people are looking to do. So yes, I agree with all of you, and it’s With all the things that you said, and I think that’s coming.

Jason Falls 17:04
So, I want to I want to go back a little bit to the IMA and some of the literature around that. I think your vision statement for the Influencer Marketing Association is we believe that influencer marketing is meaningful, substantial and ever evolving advertising practice. influencer marketing is a well defined discipline with shared industry wide ethical measurement standards. So my only issue with that vision is that it says that it is an ever evolving advertising practice. And, and I’ve had a conversation which I’m going to share, you know, soon here on the show, with Alistair Wheate, who’s the head of product at analytical, and they’re United Kingdom based company. And there’s, I talk with him in that conversation about a perception that I have when I’m looking at public relations and advertising and with regard to influence marketing in the United States, and the tools that we’re doing Developed in the United States and the difference that I see in the approach in the United Kingdom for both advertising and public relations as they relate to influencers. And I think there is a continental divide, if you will, or I guess it would be a transatlantic divide or something that that exists geographically between our two countries. But I also think there’s, there’s a philosophical divide between those two factions of advertise treating influence marketing as advertising, and treating influence marketing as public relations or communications something that I would define as more broad than advertising. I get the feeling that the IMA has the perspective of this as an advertising channel because obviously your vision kind of says that I truly believe that it is bigger than an advertising channel. It can be an advertising channel, but I feel like it is also a An overall communications channel that can be organic, it can be relationship based, as opposed to advertising, which is much more transactional based. I would love to hear your perspective on those two approaches.

Kristy Sammis 19:14
Well, that is a very philosophical question.

Jason Falls 19:20
I’m a very philosophical guy sometimes

Kristy Sammis 19:22
I appreciate it. Um, it’s, it’s funny because, you know, I, I am in my head and the way I’ve approached … I mean, in the work that we’re planning to do and have begun doing, you know, as advertising as this as this as the biggest umbrella under which PR and communications falls, but I can see that that’s not universally agreed upon, which is part of the challenge that we have as an industry all together is because, again, we don’t have that it goes back to not having a shared language. But I think you’re I would never disagree that it can be an advertising channel, it is a communications channel, it is part of PR. It is part of organic. It can happen organically. It does happen organically. And then a million years ago when I wrote Influencer Marketing for Dummies, um, you know, the the like super, super super precursor, we were putting together you know, we’re looking at earned, you know, paid, earned and owned and how influencer defies those buckets. It’s kind of all of them and none of them are better than better than this, you know, bigger than the sum of the parts.

Jason Falls 20:44

Kristy Sammis 20:45
So yeah, well I you know, and

Jason Falls 20:49
Let me let me clarify a little bit the pattern to known I love the way you you you frame that because influence marketing. I think if done well is a little Little bit of all of those things. You know, you’re engaging an influencer to help provide content to your own channels, you are engaging an influencer to also you know, provide you know, pay them and turn their channel into a paid place for you to communicate. But you also hopefully over time are building relationship with that influencer so that there’s some earned in there too. And and here’s where I think the the the rift has has hit me most impressively lately, or most impactfully. Lately, so many of the managed service tools that are out there for influencer marketing, and there’s, there’s several of them, there’s IZEA, there’s Traackr, there’s Mavrck, there’s several other tools where you pay them a certain fee, and they will go find the influencers for you and they will manage all of this stuff for you. I don’t recommend you can do that with every program, but when you have to scale sometimes you got to kind of got to do that. Several of them have a policy that says hey, if you are engaging us to manage the influencer relationship for you, you can’t have a relationship with the influencers because they could then go behind our back and renegotiate these and I understand the business case for that separation. But if you remove me as a brand manager away from the influencers that I want to build a relationship with over time, because you know, you’ve you’ve got to put a wall up for for advertising purposes. That to me takes away from the the magic of good influencer marketing because it prevents me from building a relationship where there can be some earned media on my part from that influencer. But there can also be great partnerships and benefit that that influencer gets from their relationship with my brand if they want to be seen as an authority in their industry and whatnot and I’m a player in that industry, well, then I can help them to, and that’s where the big rub comes down for me because if you have a relationship Based kind of a public relations approach to influence marketing, the paid part can be a part of it. It’s not eliminated from it. But if you have a strictly advertising perspective on it, you almost cut out the relationship part and that that’s a rub that I don’t, I’m uncomfortable with.

Kristy Sammis 23:19
Well, I have a lot to say about this. So to begin with, and I agree with you, I mean, we we see eye to eye on on most matters. Um, so my agency which is Clever,, which we haven’t really talked about has, as I mentioned, been around for 10 years. We are a full service influencer marketing agency, we we manage your programs for you, we have a platform that’s not white labeled, it’s only available to us right now. And we do not limit our clients from actually also working with the influencers for all of the reasons you mentioned. And, and our entire philosophy has been and the reason we aren’t a tech company The reason we aren’t a platform, say like Mavrck, whom we love and work with. We work we’re two hands on. We are, you know, a services business. Because philosophically we believe that if you if you move too far to scale, as you said, you want to scale, you start to commoditize influencers, and then you’re treating them like ad units, not human beings. And as soon as you start doing that, you lose exactly what you said, you lose the magic, you lose what makes this work, you lose why this is better than any form of advertising we’ve ever seen. I mean, this has been my career for 15 years because I love it not the other way around. And so I feel very strongly that when you if you completely remove the human element, which Some platforms aim to do not all include Mavrck, they do not. If If and when you do, you absolutely do lose that, that you can lose very quickly what makes something meaningful. So that said, the reality is that there are many brands and marketers out there who essentially want to transactional relationship. And there’s good and bad in that. You just want to get it out, you want to make a big splash, you want a lot of people. So you have a new product coming out a CPG company has a new product coming out and they just want as many people to know about as possible. They don’t want a relationship with the influencers, they want a splash, they want a big, you know, a big PR event. And so that’s okay, if you hire 100 or 500 or 3000 micro influencers to promote this particular product, and then that’s it. That’s it. That’s the beginning and the end of their relationship. Otherwise Brands take a much different role, you know, take a much different approach, and want to actually establish relationships with their influencers and have them be brand ambassadors or work one on one with especially the higher tier, you know, and the celebrity type folk. And then the relationship becomes much more personal and the person doing the creating the content on behalf of the brand has a lot more skin in the game. So that but you have to really think about that relationship in terms of like, what is it you’re trying to get out of the program? And is it okay for it to be transactional? I think it can be. But that’s not the only way to operate. To your original point. We’re making it impossible for brands to then work with those influencers who engaged is silly, because eventually, if brands want to manage programs in house they should be allowed to and they should have access to whoever they want. And I have to say on the flip side of that, well Sort of a flip side, we also strongly encourage brands not to require exclusivity of influencers. That’s a very popular thing for brands to do, like, Oh, well, if you if you write about my cereal, you can’t write about breakfast foods for the rest of the year, or for the next six months, or for the next 90 days or whatever the contract states, right? And it’s like, well, nobody eats the same cereal, seven days a week. Like, that’s not real. That’s not how people live. You know, I mean, like, we saw it with makeup brands. You can be a brand ambassador, but you’re not only going to want I mean, I don’t know how familiar you are with makeup artists, but you know, beauty influencers being a whole thing. You’re not just you’re never just wearing one brand of everything unless it’s your own and even then you probably are. So

Jason Falls 27:48
Well, I’m definitely someone who does not have a lot of exposure to the beauty space. Anyone who knows me is well aware … I probably could use a beauty consultant to At some point, so,

Kristy Sammis 28:01
Contouring and

Jason Falls 28:04
So okay, I did talk to you for the book. And there was one, I think, really interesting nugget that you that you gave me when we were talking about the whether or not having a paid relationship with a brand is detrimental to the credibility that it has. And everybody that I talked to said, yeah, you know, the paid relationship automatically sort of tears down that wall a little bit, or puts up that wall a little bit between the brand and the audience because the audience knows that the person is getting paid for it. And that’s a bad thing. You You didn’t agree with that perspective. And I wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about that here.

Kristy Sammis 28:55
Okay. Um, well, I do recognize that there’s a difference between me going on Facebook and saying, Hey, I just had this life changing experience with this. Uh, I don’t know, shower gel. I don’t know.

Jason Falls 29:15
That’s one hell of a shower gel if it’s life changing. Okay, all right.

Kristy Sammis 29:19
I don’t know, I’m thinking like, it’s, this is all COVID right? It’s all been indoors after, think about spa treatments and such. Um, so so you know, okay, discharge, I’ll change my life. Amazing. Everybody should go get it and saying, I have a client. And this is their product and I tried it and it’s amazing or of course, more realistic is an influencer saying I tried this. It smells fantastic. This change. This is like a life changing shower gel. I’m never using any other brands. Yes, of course there is a difference between it being sponsored and not but not to such an extent that it’s It’s unbelievable or it shouldn’t be, and, and in any influencer worth their salt knows the difference and won’t, you know, doesn’t show. I mean, that’s the whole thing is we we have we’ve been raised to believe that like, okay, you’re going to get paid, you’re getting paid to say good things. And that, you know, if somebody’s paying you to talk about a product, you’re a shill period and the stories pay to play, you know, and and our industry started with a lot of that bad behavior to, like, we will pay you if you post these words from the brand, we will pay you you know, there literally with a company, early days, pay per post. I don’t know if you’re familiar, but I mean, that’s what they were. Yeah. Obviously they’ve evolved, but you know, but that’s where we started. So that’s not where we are now. And, you know, we’ve come so far from that, of course, people get frustrated when there’s too much advertising in their feeds. They get frustrated when there’s too much advertising anywhere. Or if it’s just not believable, but that’s really between the brand and the influencer to make sure that, you know, the reins on the influencer aren’t too tight that let them let them post believable stuff, posting only glowing reviews that have no negative, you know, I did it I did a product review and it was perfect in every single way. Nobody, nobody’s gonna read that nobody’s gonna believe it. So there are of course, ways that it diminishes the experience but done well it shouldn’t. And to, you know, my kids who are 11 and nine and you know, are all about Tick tock, but we’re, you know, and YouTube Of course, you know, they see when somebody they follow gets to, you know, get to sponsorship. You get to collab, they’re so excited for them. They’ve made it this is so cool.

Jason Falls 31:52
So that is that’s the point that I was that kind of made me stop when we were talking for the book was like way too She’s right. And I immediately turned around after I got off the phone with you that day and talked to my 15 year old son and my 12 year old daughter. And they both said, Oh yeah, I’ve got my daughter, especially cuz she loves YouTube. There’s three or four YouTubers that follow. They’ve got these great brand collabs with blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like it made that influencer more important in her mind because that influencer had a connection was important enough to have a connection with the brand.

Kristy Sammis 32:27
Yep. So I think that’s that’s the way of things and it’s I think that is the way of things now and it’s a you know, let’s be honest, it’s generational. Oh, and the older we are, the more averse we are to seeing that because again, we have the whole like shill or we know that celebrities. Not that long ago were paid to say anything about anything, you know, and ruining care. You know, nobody, as I’ve said before, like nobody believes that you know, this beautiful celebrities actually Buying drugstore shampoo it’s not really on the spot kick today I don’t know where anyway you know as examples but like nobody’s believing that but um you know so we grew up very we were duped by advertising frankly and influencer has the opportunity to not be that way and whenever it tries to be that way it fails. People get called out people who are lying or not disclosing get called out and people get really mad but for the most part and especially when we start talking about younger generations they grew up with this and they’re seeing this and and sponsorships are cool clubs are cool.

Jason Falls 33:46
It’s a it’s a it’s a new it’s a new Wild West. It’s a wonderful world out there for us to figure out in the coming years. Christy if someone’s interested in the Influencer Marketing Association, what do they need to go And where do they what do they need to do? And then and then where can they find you on the on the interwebs?

Kristy Sammis 34:06
So the Influencer Marketing Association is under the very creative URL We are going to be shortening that where we have a little little rebranding. And we have a when you go to the site, you’ll be able to look at membership options. You can also sign up for our we have a webinar coming up next week next Thursday. You can read all about that it’s talking about how we’ve really had to pivot and and some of the both from the marketing and from the creator side because of COVID and and some real success stories and some real inspirational creative solutions. So that’s where the IMA is and I can be found on most handles as Kristy — K-R-I-S-T-Y S-F as in San Francisco, I’m on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook and Kristy Sammis on LinkedIn.

Jason Falls 35:08
and and right?

Kristy Sammis 35:11 I’m also there

Jason Falls 35:14
Don’t forget that.

Kristy Sammis 35:14
all over the place

Jason Falls 35:15
Gotta have that in there, too.

Kristy Sammis 35:16
I appreciate that.

Transcribed by

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