Pierre-Loic Assayag is the founder and CEO of Traackr, one of the more sophisticated influence identification platforms on the market. His technology analyzes influence not by reach, but by relevance, often surfacing influencers brands would never realize were worth reaching. As a global platform, Assayag also has insights into the differences in influencers and influence strategies in different markets.

In this episode of Winfluence – The Influence Marketing Podcast, we talked about the global variations on influence marketing, the advertising versus public relations philosophical debate and much more in an interesting discussion.

Winfluence – The Influence Marketing Podcast is a companion piece to my forthcoming influencer marketing book, Winfluence: Reframing Influencer Marketing to Ignite Your Brand, set to publish in early 2021 from Entrepreneur Press. I interview the Who’s Who of Influencer Marketing weekly — from brand managers to software creators, and from agency strategists to influencers themselves. If you know someone who should be a guest on the show, shoot me an email at jason – at – jasonfalls – dot – com.

Winfluence Podcast – Pierre-Loic Assayag Transcript

Jason Falls 0:31
Hello again friends thanks for listening to influence the influence marketing podcast. Traackr is a name those of us who have been doing influencer marketing a while are very familiar with and Pierre-Loic Assayag is its co founder and CEO. Traackr with two A’s and no E probably cornered the market on being able to identify a brand’s potential online influencers very early in the game. The company was founded in 2008 behind a pretty simple idea, but one that is complex to implement.

Jason Falls 0:59
The idea was instead of organizing the web by popular websites or pages like Google does with its search algorithm, Traackr would organize it by people and prioritize them based on their relevance to a given topic. In a time when influencer marketing platforms were just starting and measuring influenced by follower count reach, in essence, tracker was measuring it by relevance to the topic at hand.

Jason Falls 1:25
I first came into contact with Traackr when they sent me a list of influencers in the bourbon space. The typical players were there because they’re easy to identify. Chuck Cowdery and Fred Minnick are typically at the top of the list, then and now. Then there were bloggers and Twitter users. Now remember, this is 2008. So Instagram wasn’t a thing. But the ones that were highlighted then were people who talked a lot about cocktails. But then there was me.

Jason Falls 1:50
At that time, I didn’t have a big following. I wasn’t a bourbon influencer. If anything, I was a marketing one but a very low end of the spectrum one at that. But I talked about bourbon a lot because I work with bourbon clients so I was relevant to their list.

Jason Falls 2:05
That opened my eyes to the fact Traackr had something other companies didn’t. Fast forward to today and they’re still going strong focused on the technology and their relevance algorithm. They haven’t strayed too far from what they do best trying to tack on various tools and features and their clients love them for it. Because Pierre has been around this influence marketing world a long time he has a deep perspective on a lot of the topics in the industry. So I explored them as well as the technology landscape with him in our talk on Winfluence!

Jason Falls 2:41
I remember the first time I saw Traackr, it was a list of influencers in the bourbon space that you know, one of your team members sent me okay, and this was in the mid 2000s. So very early on in the in the evolution of both the company and influence marketing. And it was you guys did it perfectly because you sent me a list of bourbon influencers. And back then I made the list.

Jason Falls 3:09
Because, you know, there weren’t a lot of bourbon bloggers, there weren’t a lot of bourbon podcasts back then there weren’t a lot of social media channels where individuals were trying to carve out there on the lips, there’s a bazillion of them now. But you you, you capitalized on my ego perfectly, because here I was on ranked on this list of bourbon influencers and I thought, how did they figure that out? And so tell me what it was about your early approach in the early sort of build of Traackr that you know, set you guys apart from others, because the way you were ranking and rating influencers, I think was very different at the beginning.

Pierre-Loic Assayag 3:47
Yeah, so I will tell you when we first started and you’re right was very early. I’ll tell you the one thing that we did right and the one thing that we did wrong.

Jason Falls 3:58
Ooh, I like this!

Pierre-Loic Assayag 3:58
So the one thing that we did, right Was that we very early saw influencer marketing as being led by relevancy over popularity. And, and there was no confusion for for us at Traackr, that, in order for someone to change mine and lead people to take a different action than the one they would take otherwise, which is the definition of influence. You need more than a lot of followers. And and so our quest in the early life of Traackr was to try to find the people that were creating the most. The most buzz the most actions around specific topic area. And the way we did it was mindlessly simple in its in its approach, which was to mimic what Google was doing for webpages with people. So in other words, look for pointers towards specific topical areas. That when you talk about bourbon, when you write about bourbon, you get full comments and shares and likes than the next guy. And as a result, you pop you rise up in Traackr’s scoring algorithm. So that’s how you made it to the list back then it’s probably also Jason, why you would make it today, unfortunately,

Jason Falls 5:18
Right? Yeah, I don’t, I don’t have as active. And there’s a lot more competition. So so your algorithm really is a comparison of an individual person to sort of the their competition in that particular

Pierre-Loic Assayag 5:33
Right. And again, it’s very much in the same way that Google rates relevancy for webpages, where Google we look at pointers around specific topic area, we do this with people across the social presence. And so it would be a blog or twitter feed and Instagram feed, and the list goes on. And what we found is that it really gives us a critical mass of data that is actually better than the one that one gets on a website. In order to weigh somebody’s relevance around, around these topics, so we did this and I really strongly believe to this day that we did this very right. For that matter, even though we’ve, we’ve since gutted our technology and rebuilt it many times over the the approach that we’re taking is very similar to this day on how we weigh relevance. The one thing that we got wrong or at least just didn’t foresee at the time was the power of relationships between the brand and the influencer. And what we found was that success of the partnership between the influencer and a brand is not just a function of relevance to a topic, but confidence and trust between the influencer and the brand. Confidence from the brand to let the influencer lead the creative process because they know their audience better than their brand does and confidence. From the influencer, that the brand is not going to spoil the authenticity of their voice and, and the space that they place in the community. we’ve, we’ve we’ve since corrected this and have put a lot more emphasis on the on the notion of relationship. But the yeah so we really very much in the early days favor the relevancy as a leading indicator.

Jason Falls 7:29
So, today when you when you look at that lesson learned of the power of the relationship between the influencer and the brand I love to hear you say that because you know, coming from a public relations background, my perspective on influence marketing has always been a relationship over time, you know, build a partnership over time kind of thing. What is it what is it about your algorithm or how can you see those signals coming from the repetition of an influencer, you know, working with a brand And how does that factor into how someone might rank in an array of a given topic?

Pierre-Loic Assayag 8:05
Yeah. So what we’ve what we’ve introduced and it’s also with the help of of getting more more data and more accurate data as well over time. But what we’ve been able to do in the last few years was to become very specific on the type of, of data and engagement data that we’re retrieving. So you’ll hear from just about any influencer tech provider, that engagement is more important than views. And we abide by that philosophy as well. But the one thing that Traackr does that really nobody touches is that your engagement rate is not good enough, because I bet you Jason that when you write a post about a topic, that you are one of the voices of you get many more than your new average boss. And inversely, if you start talking about something that you’re not necessarily passionate about is a new topic, you’ll get your audience to engage a lot less around that content. The same holds true for brands. So when you write about a brand that you’ve had a partnership with for a while, and it feels very authentic in your voice, and it’s being recognized by your audience as you endorsing a branded product, or an action that makes sense in context of everything else that you’re doing, your engagement rate will go 10 X, your average engagement rate and inversely, when you know that person and something feels inauthentic, it will plummet. And so we have that data that we make available to our customers so that they can see that the repetition and the authenticity is really a key indicator for success.

Jason Falls 9:50
That’s that’s amazing and certainly not an approach that I’ve seen or heard from from other people. I still see too many tools out there that are especially the lower price tools. I mean, you guys are basically an enterprise platform. The lower price tools are simply scraping, you know, even just topics out of, you know, words used in bios and whatnot. They’re not actually analyzing the content very well, which in this day and age, I think is a little lazy, to be honest with you, but but I love the approach that you’re looking at it from multiple perspectives, not just engagement rates, but also sort of engagements over time based on topic. And I think that’s what sets Traackr

Pierre-Loic Assayag 10:30
And to be fair, Jason, so I’m sorry to interrupt. But to be fair on this as well, it’s a it’s important that we bring in that complexity into into our platform into the algorithms that we build because it’s a complicated practice. And anybody who tells you otherwise, is dead wrong. They don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s it’s complicated. It’s rich. That’s what makes influencer marketing successful. But you have to acknowledge the complexity and and sit with it in order to get the results that you’re getting. you’re seeking.

Jason Falls 11:01
Right? So I want to ask this question because I know from an agency perspective, especially from a data analytics perspective, which obviously, your algorithm is all based on data, it from an agency perspective, it’s very frustrating for me to work with analytics in this regard. But I want to just kind of ask you very directly, how frustrating is it to have to deal with Facebook and Instagram who have have become much harder to analyze data from especially when those two platforms are two primary platforms for the influencer marketing space.

Pierre-Loic Assayag 11:38
So it is frustrating. The at the end of the day, the challenge for us goes beyond Facebook and Instagram in that, in order for us to be able to do our job properly. You always have to compare apples to apples. So to to always bring things to the lowest common denominator, because otherwise you end up comparing things where you happen to have a lot of data over versus something, you don’t have a lot of data. And it doesn’t mean that one works better than the other, it just means that you have more data on one thing, so you have more visibility. So So for us, it’s frustrating from that vantage point, it’s even more frustrating because the the it actually hurts everybody’s business model, including Facebook and Instagram, for that matter, where the more data you’re able to share with, with brands with your partners, the the more money they will spend with you because they have a lot more to two way they’re the investments over. So it’s it’s frustrating. We’ve come to terms with the fact that this is the world we live in. And we we have to deal with this and everybody is is set the same level on this. So the way Traackr will differentiate itself is the smarts that we’re able to bring on top of This, and also the fact that we’re being very transparent and truthful on the the learning and the insights you can get from the data. Because again, it is not because you get more data on paid campaigns versus advocacy, or long, long tail campaigns that they work better, you just have more data. And so, so it’s important for us to keep on sharing these insights with our customers, and give them the tools for themselves to to make the right investment decisions.

Jason Falls 13:35
Traackr, I believe, you know, when I think when a lot of people who think of Traackr, especially if they don’t have any direct experience working with Traackr, they, they think of it as probably a very, you know, elaborate, you know, elite platform to identify influencers, but you have a sort of robust product offering there in terms of managed services and campaign management and whatnot as well. Take us through the different levels and types of customers that you have and what are the opportunities for brands and or agencies to plug into Traackr? You know, based on those different types of offerings?

Pierre-Loic Assayag 14:11
Yeah. So if you were to parse the capability that we built, there are really three major areas in our system. There’s a discovery, there is the campaign and workflow management, and there is a reporting. Interestingly, as you rightly mentioned, when we first started, we were building lists of influencers. So our our tech is based on search, and our back end is primarily a search engine, that it is still still true to this day. However, our customers have evolved in a way that if a few years back, somebody would sign up to Traackr in order to discover new influencers. Today, most of our customers come in with their own list of influencers and they’re trying to whether or not they’re working with the right people, and more importantly to find a place in order to, to work with them at scale. So we’ve seen a shift in, in search not being the prime reason why many of our customers will engage with us at first. So, so what what tracker would do today is that for an average brand customer and I’ll speak to the agency in a second, for for the average brand customer, they have a few hundred a few thousand influencers that they need to manage Traackr is that system of record they put the information in, it gets organized automatically, you can search within that database of a few thousand people that you have, will track the content that they produce and and any actions that the brand and the influencer will undertake. The other thing that we started tracking more recently is all the spin information which gives us a reason The interesting additional metrics that we can leverage in our reporting on ROI. So, so we’ve built that whole workflow that works at campaign level, the program level allows you to compare actions that we’ve done to undertake, between between geographies and brands that you grow, may may hold. So this system of record function is often a key reason why a new customer of ours will start engaging with us. The reporting comes next and the reporting is really essential because for the majority of our customers today, they’ve passed the experimentation stage of influencer marketing and it’s become one of the core tenants of the marketing practice. And it means that boards and management teams will hold the program owners to a much higher standard on reporting on results. And so we allow our customers to do this again, but the influencer level to to assess the value of everything You’d be able to have a specific person or a future one that you want to build, to do with at a campaign level to be the program level. And again, press it by market and parse it by by brand, to your, your desire. The other piece that we’re doing on the on the reporting side is that we allow you to assess your performance versus your competitors. And we do this by market and market type so so you have like these really elaborate suite of reporting tools that allows you to compare apples to apples when you build your your program and try to optimize the key there. And it’s especially a huge asset for global brands that we work with, is that very often, when a global brand starts an influencer program, it starts grassroots from a small dark office somewhere in one country and then there’s another one popping up and another one popping up. And it creates programs that that feel completely amorphous. You’re really hard to manage. A lot of brands don’t even know how much they’re spending on influencer marketing. And so Traackr really federates that, that ability to get it organized. And more importantly, if you happen to have 10 brands and work in 20 markets, it means that you have 200 the 200 data points that at any point in time using Traackr, you can use to optimize your program. And so the bigger the mess in some ways, because you have a lot of markets, a lot of brands, the more opportunities you have to learn fast and apply your best practices across the board. The discovery side comes on the tail end of this and and really as a way to, for us to propose new people to new relationships to work with. But again, it’s by a lot of our brand customers, it has taken a backseat in in the way they’re in the maturity of the program and to work on.

Jason Falls 18:56
I think the other you know big powerful, you know, part of Traackr compared to a lot of options out there is in the space is your sort of global coverage. I wonder in in building and managing and looking at all of this data from a global perspective, and watching your your customers and your clients campaigns and whatnot over the years, have you noticed significant differences between countries in terms of what platforms are popular, what strategies are popular, what types of influencers are popular? I think a lot of people out there listening probably don’t have a lot of exposure to implementing this on a global scale. But some of them either, you know, are about to or, or will soon, you know, launch into global markets. And I know I’ve been doing some global work recently. And I’ve noticed some subtle nuances. I wonder which nuances you’ve seen over the course of the past three or four years. Maybe that could be helpful insights for folks.

Pierre-Loic Assayag 19:54
Yeah, so so you’re absolutely right. It’s a great question. So you do see a bit of a difference. On platform usage, by geography so you’ll notice for example, that things like blogs will be more important in in Germany than they would be in other in other local markets. You always have regional platforms as well, that will play a bit of a role. But I’d say overall, it these differentiations are somewhat subdue by geography compared to industries where we see a huge difference where if you’re in, in a personal care and beauty of fashion, Instagram is essential and TikTok is making its way now. While in consumer electronics, it is important, but not as important as YouTube. And if you’re in, in b2b tech, it’s going to be Twitter and blogs. And we have all that data so we’re able to see these these differences. The one thing I would say that fundamentally changes by geography, and this is one of the things that we get to to be exposed to the rule that we have is that the behavior of, of consumers and behavior of influencers. So again, if I use Germany as an example, the notion of privacy in Germany is extremely important. And so the way in which brands engage influencers is vastly different than they would do in a pack in a pack. And again, it’s a vast overstatement because a pack is not one thing, but it’s 50 things. But in Asia, in general, what we see is that there’s a leap forward of social commerce that is that goes a lot faster and stronger than in many other places. So we see these differences, unfolding the notion of brand values and brand purpose is very important in America, and even more so today than it was a year ago. So we start seeing these mega trends translate themselves into into influencer marketing how brands should engage with influence and learn from from one another based on geography as well.

Jason Falls 22:04
So your team obviously is looking at multiple markets, you know, multiple networks, multiple types of influencers, multiple industries. Where does Traackr sit in terms of like, who are your ideal customers? Is there a persona or what? Or a company persona that you have that hey, these are the companies that we do really, really well for? Certainly, I’m sure you could do well for anyone but like, Where’s your wheelhouse?

Pierre-Loic Assayag 22:31
Yeah, for sure. It’s a good question again, them so I responded in the negative in that, I’ll tell you who we don’t do well with. So if we have to teach a new prospective customer how to spell influencer marketing, because they want to experiment with it, but they really don’t know much. They haven’t built capability. They don’t have budgets. We will struggle to be helpful because we are primarily a technology firm. And secondarily in front of marketing experts, but we do not have the power that agencies have and we don’t make money off spending more time with our customers. So, so if the job is to experiment and evangelize, typically what we would do is to introduce our prospective customers to agency partners of ours, because we’re in equipped to help them and the the analogy I use with them usually say, look, if you’re starting to build a sales sales team for the first time, you don’t start with Salesforce, you start with by hiring great salespeople or internally externally, and once you’ve built enough proof points and you starting to scale your program, then we can help so the the the maturity of of a program is important to us in gauging the the value of be able to bring for for customers. Then the second element where we actually do really well is on complex programs, when you’re multi tenants so multi multi markets multi brand multi geographies. There’s really no other gaming down but but tracker to be able to help you federate that program. And we have a really unique skill set that we’re able to bring to the fourth on the on things like this by market. The one thing I would say what we tend to do better than than most is when influencer marketing is not seen as an extension of your media strategy. So in other words, you really working towards building relationships with people within France or some of them will be partnerships, not necessarily all of them. And the more you bring richness to your to your program and engaging with micro influencers, micro influencers and build your mix, build relationships at scale. This is where Traackr will really get its full value and to unfold. If your program is very narrow and seen as an extension of your advertising strategy. There probably other solutions out there that will do as good of a job for less money.

Jason Falls 25:05
So, let me let me say that back to you in a different way, because what I heard you say, actually aligns with a topic that I love to, you know, go back and forth with people on the show about, which is I think there’s, you know, in a very broad level, two different ways to look at influencer marketing from a strategic perspective. One is the public relations, you know, relationship building, long term investment, loyalty, partnership approach, more of an organic approach. And that’s where I hear you say, Traackr aligns really well. It’s it’s not an extension of advertising as much as it is that it is an extension of either PR or, you know, sort of building relationships over time. Whereas, you know, other tools out there are more in line with an advertising perspective where it’s we’re going to pay an influencer a set amount of money. They’re gonna post a certain amount of content. And then we might even follow that up and actually put paid spend behind their content to increase impressions and reach and frequency. So is it fair to say that like, and I’ll throw this out there, you don’t have to take, you know, claim for saying this. So, a Traackr is a really good PR tool. You know, if you have that perspective, and a tool like maybe IZEA that has a little bit more of an advertising DNA is probably better suited for that transactional sort of, you know, one type of mechanism is that fair?

Pierre-Loic Assayag 26:37
So I would not necessarily characterize it this way and the in that the majority of our customers really don’t necessarily sit in PR. What we do see though, is that customers that tend to operate their influencer program, but the campaign by campaign level without another arching program or really a careful in for building influencer relations. There are other solutions out there I don’t know enough about IZEA to comment over the quality of the software but there’s a myriad of solutions that is available to folks that only care to get a bunch of people to produce content on their behalf, boosted get a lot of views from Kim Kardashian and the rest, were not that, that platform. But when the mix of paid plus earned becomes an important criterion, and a few years back, Jason, I was an adamant advocate of not paying influencers because he was damaging the authenticity of the relation. I’ve I’ve had to walk this back because our data set different or data said it’s not about paid or not paid. It’s about authenticity. And an audience will recognize that if you ask an influencer to do a lot of things on your behalf, you should be paying them And so So for us, the it’s much more about the richness of the program and the complexity than it is about, you know, PR versus marketing. But again, if if your primary goal is to get a bunch of folks to contribute social content that you will dictate the creative for, and publish that to all of their followers, and then boosted posts or reuse them in your own property. And that’s really the extent of it. I don’t think that Traackr’s instantly the tool for you.

Jason Falls 28:37
Okay, now, you touched on something there that I want to drill into a little bit. So you say that your data, you know, has indicated and helped and helped you sort of walk back on the idea of you shouldn’t pay influencers and you You said that your data sort of showed you that it wasn’t about paid versus earned that it was about authenticity. So I want to just clarify that a little Bit and ask the question. So basically what I heard you say is when we look at paid engagements, versus let’s say earned organic engagements, if the authenticity, you know, factor is there, there’s really not a difference between the engagement, whether it’s paid or not. And that aligns with actually, some of the conversations we’ve had on this show, which is, you know, now paid engagements, especially with younger generations are seen as a very positive thing, not a negative thing the way older people think, because it’s, it’s a co lab and a co lab actually gives. That’s what they’re calling it anyway. A co lab I think, when the younger generations is an indication of this influencer is so cool and so important that they can actually make money doing this and I like that. So is that what your data is sort of open your eyes to?

Pierre-Loic Assayag 29:51
Yeah, so this is accurate, and, as I mentioned earlier, because we have the ability to track content and specific metrics around the content, we’re able to tell that if tomorrow, Jason, you start talking about some topic and brand you’ve never spoken about before, and you get paid for it, but you fail to reveal that this was a paid collaboration, your audience will deem that you were paid, because you don’t see any other reason why you would talk about that brand right now and they won’t like it. So in no likelihood, even though you post your post will look like an organic post because there’s no self declared information around sponsorship, your audience will penalize you for talking about a brand that you’ve never mentioned before. inversely, if you build a paid collaboration for brands that you already have signed off, and they want to do more with you, and you have a paid operation, you’ll see that your your, your engagement rates around these posts is likely to go skyrocketing. Because your audience will endorse the fact that you want to do more for something you already believe in. So So to me, this is much more about that authenticity factor and preserving the voice rather than whether or not you have a hashtag sponsored next year post or not.

Jason Falls 31:17
What that tells me for influencers, who are out there trying to figure out how to monetize their content and get better at sort of earning a living doing this is they need to really focus on brands that they can have and build a long term relationship with because as long as they’re enthusiastic and genuine and authentic, about the content that they’re sharing about those brands over time, it’s kind of a The more the merrier, the more posts, the more colabs, the more partnerships an influencer has with a given brand. As long as that authenticity stays there, the more impactful that is for them and the certainly the the longer term that relationship can be Yeah, which can be a pain relief.

Pierre-Loic Assayag 31:56
You’re absolutely right and for that matter for influencers that are trying To make it to have a large enough audience and enough partnerships to make a living of it, it often feels counterintuitive if your focus is to become professional, because you will be tempted to say yes to a lot of the partnerships that that you will get from brands or even reach out to some brands or some opt in networks and marketplaces in order to to increase your earnings, but that the actual results if that if too much of this doesn’t feel right doesn’t feel authentic to your audience, you end up losing value, because the engagement or on your post will end up going much lower than it was before. So a much better bet is there are a few things that made you the person who you are that you are today. So focus on these topics focus on the things that that really created the the interest of your audience, and then build partnerships around it. This is success.

Jason Falls 32:57
Is there a quantitative way besides engagement, to measure authenticity,

Pierre-Loic Assayag 33:06
So the … that’s a good question, so besides engagement to measure authenticity, so the way we are, there are a few things that we do and I’m trying to parse which ones are worth mentioning about. I’ll give you a silly example. One of the things that we we look at in our, in, in our long list of data points is whether when an influencer will mention a brand. Is this opposed about the brand or is their brand coming completely contextual? In the long list of you know, 2020 handles that an influencer will show on Instagram. And so for for us, we see different ways in the content of the post as well as the engagement around the post to try to weigh whether or not something is being perceived as, as authentic or not. But I’d say for the most part, engagement remains the the main driver for us. And in all of its richness, right? So engagement for us is also comments and things like this. So, so we’ll be looking at the full spectrum of audiences engaging with content. And and using that as a as a proxy for for whether or not something feels real to the audience.

Jason Falls 34:33
Very interesting. It’s one of those things that I think we’re constantly gonna evolve how we analyze that because I think when there’s not an easy answer to Yes, there’s a quantitative way to measure authenticity. We’re going to people like you, we’re going to come up with ways to do it. And that’s the evolution and …

Pierre-Loic Assayag 34:50
We’ll keep on changing it as well. Right. So the just the notion of using engagement as proxy for for success is it Not very very old. Just not long ago, many brands were primarily using the number of followers as a way to figure out how much with another should be an influencer and how and how much And today, most brands have moved past this. And they’re they’re looking not at impressions but the authentic engagement from from from, from audiences.

Jason Falls 35:31
So, Pierre, tell us how people can find you and connect with you online and certainly how they can find to connect with Traackr.

Pierre-Loic Assayag 35:38
For sure. So I’m unfortunately not as active as I wish I’d be on on social but you can always reach me at @pierreloic on Twitter. So it’s P-I-E-R-R-E-L-O-I-C on on Twitter and that’d be a good means to get in touch. And otherwise, just find me on Instagram, LinkedIn, or  … same handle.

Jason Falls 36:01
Very nice and Traackr for those of you who don’t know and you certainly should buy now because it’s been one of the mainstay influence marketing platforms out there for more than 10 years is T-R-A-A-C-K-R and that’s dot-com. Pierre thank you so much for your time today I really appreciate you spending some time with us and sharing some knowledge and interested to see how your your platform continues to evolve.

Pierre-Loic Assayag 36:26
Happy to do it Jason thanks for inviting me.

Transcribed by otter.ai

The Winfluence theme music is “One More Look” featuring Jacquire King and Stephan Sharp by The K Club found on Facebook Sound Collection.

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